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SUPPORT FORUMS FOR DECWARE SPEAKERS >> ERR /ERRx >> What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
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Message started by ob2 on 07/12/10 at 19:22:38

Title: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ob2 on 07/12/10 at 19:22:38

I'm thinking about using Sonicap instead of stock capacitor. Is it good?  What value should I choose?

Thanks!


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ZYGI on 07/13/10 at 02:34:08

ob,

  We tried many different brands of cap, I found I liked the ClarityCap the best overall until you got to the ClarityCap MA range $115.00 each or Mundorf silver/oil $79.30 each

Keep the value the same as it is....

Bob Z

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by gagetman0414 on 07/16/10 at 17:05:56

Bob

Mundorf also have two other caps at a higher cost. Do you think these are worth the extra money or are we just splitting hairs at this point? I think they are called gold/silver and gold/silver/oil. Their costs are $120 & $160 respectively.


Thanks !
Andre

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ZYGI on 07/16/10 at 22:58:11

Andre,

Splitting hairs, maybe, maybe not. It would totally depend on what is upstream from the tweeter, amp, source, media. Its a fine line between getting the most detail, and then going to far only to find there isn't enough media worth listening to.

Then, with that said, if you don't have a very well treated room, any more spent on caps would be a total waste of money You won't be able to hear the difference anyway. Just my opinion.

BobZ

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ob2 on 07/24/10 at 07:21:02

Cannot find Claritycap MA series. In stead there is a MR series.

If I replace the cap for ERR, what value should I order? Thanks.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by gagetman0414 on 07/24/10 at 14:38:05

I replaced mine last week with mundorf's silver / oil. The value of the cap on my ERR'S are  3.9 uf . I also repaced the resistors with mundorf's audiophile grade resistors. Although I have not had much time to sit and listen, what I heard was even more smoooth. For me the cost of the upgrade was $ 220.00 and was worth it. Keep in mind that great care needs to be taken during installation as these caps are about twice the pysical size as the clarity caps.

 Andre

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ob2 on 07/24/10 at 18:42:53

Thanks, that is exactly what I'm planning to change. Changing the cap and resistor 3 ohm Mundorf M-Resist Supreme.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ob2 on 08/06/10 at 16:01:24

Changed using Mundorf silver/oil and Mundorf resistor.

But for male vocal is thin and bass is a bit weak. Does it require long run-in to get the right sound. It is not balance sound after changing.

Thanks.


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by ZYGI on 08/07/10 at 02:05:13

ob2, Its  going to take some break in time for them to sound even decent, probably 200 hours it just might start to sound  good.

zygi

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by gagetman0414 on 08/07/10 at 13:47:14

I found that after switching to the mundorf caps & resistors my ERR's sound slightly smoother initially but they never sounded worse than the clarity caps. I  have about 70 hours on my ERR'S and 25 of those hours on the new resistors and caps. It's nice to know their is room for improvment!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Pale Rider on 06/09/11 at 03:55:59

I plan to try these Mundorf silver/gold/oil when it comes time to upgrade. But with three pair, I will likely take my time.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by decwalex on 08/23/14 at 18:22:58

Hi,
I have recently purchased a used ERR speaker and like it very much except for a certain recessed, sound that makes instruments and voices sound kind of "hollow". I also have the feeling that the treble sounds grainy. It seems like there is a problem with the frequency balance that I cannot solve by playing around with the different resistors. The low value resistors sound too bright in my room and the 15 Ohm ones sound too dead, but non of them really solves the problem of the recessed midrange and hollow sounding voices and instruments

Speakers and system are in a non acoustically treated living room. Due to WAF the speakers are positioned very close to the back walls in a corner where all the system and the TV is located. I realise this may not be optimal, but I can't change it…

Could a capacitor / resistor upgrade solve this? You mention the Mundorf in this thread, but I have read very positive reviews of the following:

VH AUDIO (V-CAP) TEFLON CAPACITORS
SOLEN TEFLON FEP FILM & FOIL CAPACITORS

Two questions:
Did you try them also and found the Mundorf to be better?
Would a resistor upgrade also help? Which brands should I look for?

Thank you! :)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by decwalex on 08/25/14 at 17:46:41

Hi again,

Rereading my previous post I just realised that I may have given a too negative impression about the ERR sound. It is an amazing speaker that images like no other speaker I have heard before. The bass extension is really surprising for such a small enclosure. The ERR really sounds almost  like a "big" full range speaker. The issue about the slightly grainy treble is really due to a desire on my side to make it "perfect". Previously I had a monitor, which obviously was far from full range, but the highs were a little purer and cleaner, that's why I posted my previous message. I am still not sure if this is due to the omnidirectionality of the tweeter which causes that wounderful soundstage but also more reflections from side and rear walls. Perhaps it is a matter of getting used to it.

On the other side, another thing worth mentioning is that for now I am driving the speakers with a solid state amplifier, which does not seem to be the "ideal" for this speaker. I am planning to introduce a tube amp soon. Perhaps that alone improves the quality of the highs enough to make me forget about capacitor upgrades...  :)

Cheers!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 08/26/14 at 00:42:05

Hey decwalex,

I upgraded the caps to Mundorf supreme 3.9 and the sound REALLY blossomed.  You must get the speakers away from the wall tho even if you have to listen at low volume and move them after the session.
After consulting with Steve I've got my ERR's just inside a pair of french doors(that slide into wall thankfully so they do not to disturb acoustics) toe'd in slightly and now have have sound flowing through 2 continuous rooms. The listening room is treated and sounds glorious but my bedroom to the rear of the speakers sounds awesome as well with a different yet also fantastic sound.
On my tube amp the Torii III treble adjustments took the most of my energy when making adjustments  so that could be tricky.  Thankfully with the Torii's treble pots its easy to tune to taste.
Good luck,
JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by decwalex on 08/26/14 at 08:04:45

Hi JD,

Thank you very much for your suggestions. Mundorf Caps seem to be a common recommendation on this forum to upgrade the ERR sound.

What is exactly achieved by increasing or decreasing the value of the Cap? If I have understood correctly other threads about this topic here, a higher cap value widens the frequency range that is directed to the tweeter (making it reach lower frequencies). Is that right?

PD: Your sliding doors set up to make it possible to use the speakers in two different rooms is really impressive! What a good idea! I wish I could do something similar at home!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 08/26/14 at 21:48:06

I think Will said it best in an email to me when he suggested them, really smooths out the sound.  I find the music very lush and open.  The caps are large and beefy and require some patience when making them fit correctly on the back of the ERR's but it's been a great upgrade.  I don't hear two speakers I have a wall of sound coming towards me. If you truly get stuck both Steve and Zygi (builder of the ERR's) are more than willing to answer any questions large or small to help you out.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by decwalex on 09/01/14 at 23:01:27

Hi everyone,

I have decided to purchase the Mundorf Supreme cap and the Mundorf Silver in Oil cap. The Supreme is already a major improvement over the Clarity, but yesterday I replaced the Mundorf Supreme with a Mundorf Silver in Oil Cap. It is still new and needs to break in, but the difference is already very noticeable. Sound has become much more coherent from top to bottom and far more liquid. Voices and instruments sound more real, I can here more detail, more soundstage… The ERR sound so much better with these caps that I wonder why this is not the stock cap the ERR where delivered with… Highly recommended. There are even better caps in the Mundorf line, but they start to get really big. Intuitively I felt this was a reasonable investment to upgrade this speaker. I have also replaced the stock resistances with Mundorf equivalent low inductance resistances. Again, the difference is very noticeable for the better.

Enjoy!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 09/01/14 at 23:14:51

Congrats! Making a great speaker better is very satisfying! Would you be able to share the specs on both the resistors and the caps? Or part numbers? Thanks.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by decwalex on 09/10/14 at 16:06:44

Hi,

Yes, sure:

-Mundorf Mcap Supreme 3,3uF
-Mundorf MCap Silver in Oil 3,3uF

Now that I have broken in both Caps (Mundorf Supreme 3,3 and Mundorf Silver in Oil 3,3) I can tell you that both are very good and way better than the original Clarity. I wonder why Decware did not consider the Mundorf Supreme at least. For very few bucks more, the sound of the speaker would improve tremendously. The Silver in Oil is clearly better than the Supreme AFTER breaking it in. Initially it can give too much high frequencies and sound unnatural and harsh. So be patient. The Silver/Gold/Oil model may still be better, but it is also much more expensive, so I will end my experiments here... and enjoy the ERR, a really nice speaker!!!

I have also replaced the ceramic resistors by low inductance ones from Mundorf which are specially designed for speaker cross overs:

Mundorf MResist Supreme 20W with various Ohm figures

They are also much better than the stock ones. All together this is a little investment, but I think it's worth the improvement.

Cheers!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 09/10/14 at 16:14:41

Thanks a lot.  :)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 09/16/14 at 14:04:44

Well, I installed Mundorf Mcap Supreme 3,3uF caps in my ERR pair that reside at my parents in my system there. . . and right after installation I noticed an improvement, as you mentioned: smoother, more spacious, blossoming. I'm very happy with the sound, thanks for the assistance.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 06/30/16 at 02:08:49

Hi,

Realize I'm coming pretty late to this thread. But if anyone has any insight into the 3.3 vs 3.9 uF cap values, it would be truly appreciated.

The stock value on my clarity caps is 3.3 uF.

JD Stated: "I upgraded the caps to Mundorf supreme 3.9 and the sound REALLY blossomed. "

Decwalex Asked: "What is exactly achieved by increasing or decreasing the value of the Cap? If I have understood correctly other threads about this topic here, a higher cap value widens the frequency range that is directed to the tweeter (making it reach lower frequencies). Is that right?"

It looks like Decwalex ended up installing the stock value of 3.3 uF. He bought and tried:

-Mundorf Mcap Supreme 3,3uF
-Mundorf MCap Silver in Oil 3,3uF

Is there anyone who has tried the Mundorf Mcap Supreme in both 3.3 and 3.9 uF and has any suggestion as to the differences? Is it true, as per Decwalex above, that the 3.9 uF cap would allow the tweeter to extend lower?

Thank you all!

Matt

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 08/15/16 at 01:02:06

Hi,

I'm new to the forums and I don't know if it's too late to add to this topic, but I thought I would anyway as I have ERR's and have tried different Caps and Resistors.  Had the Mundorf Supreme Resitors, which were very good.  Then Tried Deulund Silver Cast and found that the end result was a far more  "natural" somewhat smoother without loosing any of the dynamics.  I also ended up with Jupiter Flat Stacked Caps 3.3 uF.

Now I'm in the process adding the CSP-3 to the system.

Cheers

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 08/15/16 at 23:46:55

Late to the thread too. Didn't know this one was here.

I got on a similar wavelength recently. I replaced my Mundorf Supreme resistors with Duelund Standard Graphite/Silvers and could describe them similarly to your Cast Duelunds Joman. I am sure yours are better, Duelund obviously knowing what they are doing, but the Standard Graphites are very transparent...like no resistor.

I also have some 3.3 Jupiter flat stacks sitting in my cart waiting for the big decision between Mundorf Silver in Oil (SIO), Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil, Audyn True Copper, Jupiter Copper, or just staying where I am. I definitely am at a really good place and should/might just stop.

Over the years I have been experimenting a lot with small caps "bypassing" my 3.3 Mundorf Supremes, improving the Supremes beyond adding a little value. It is amazing how a 0.1 cap can influence a 3.3! Difficult logic there for me, but real. It generally makes the big cap better and can morph its sound toward that of the little cap.

Going back and forth between 0.33 Mundorf SIOs, and 0.1 Jupiter HTs doubled, and mixed with 0.1 NOS Russian K40Y-9 (my chosen bypasses for years before trying these more "boutique" caps), I could go either way, both great improvements. But I seem to be settling on the SIOs so far. It is so complete, powerful, and natural sounding without being obvious about being "natural." I am seduced by the vast micro information conveyed so smoothly and quickly....less so by the power, the power being more demanding, but it too can be seductive.


doukhobar.

Yes, the higher cap value increases the high frequency range, lowering the point at which the tweeter falls off. I think it is 6 dB/per octave in this case of using just a resistor followed by (in series) caps before the tweeter.

Resistor value can be great to explore also. In that case, the higher value attenuates the tweeter more...a relatively clean volume adjustment. When I was first exploring Mundorf M-Resist resistors, I ended up with a slightly lesser value 2.7R (and more tweeter volume) because that resistor sound is solid, smooth, dense and powerful...quite detailed, but the detail is less obvious with these other traits. Whereas, I think I get more sense of subtle, supple and spacious highs with a greater value 3.0 Duelund, the Duelund having greater transparency. I like the Mundorf sound a lot...just different signature choices from very good designers, though at this point, the Duelund's "not being there" is more to my liking.

I think most tweeters on ERRs are like those on the HR1s a 5 ohm ribbon. Bob may have been using a variation on that tweeter for a little while, that one being 6 ohms.

Here is a calculator where you can enter cap value and impedance and arrive at the slope-off frequency. http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=1

If you have the tweeter that looks like the HR1 pictures, yours is likely 5 ohm. If it has a rectangular ribbon area that is wider, then I am guessing this is 6 ohm ribbon tweeter variation from the same maker, but check with Bob for verification if you get serious about this.

If you calculate 3.3 uF and 3.9 uF, you will see the difference.

Where the mid/bass driver and tweeter cross, and how they do that has some flexibility. Generally speaking, folks tend to recommend staying within 10% of the original calculated cap value, though as JD found, this is not absolute. As I recall, I think the phase can drift if the value is changed too much. Also a very small "bypass" can apparently improve the sound by a fair bit as per the Duelund Silver Bypass with a value of only 0.01 uF. The humblehifi guy says these improve about any cap by about 2 where his scale rarely gets above 12. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Lately I am preferring mine with a 10% "bypass," my 3.3 Mundorf Supreme (stock value for the HR1) wired parallel with the 0.33 Mundorf SIO....together in parallel 3.63.

With my 5 ohm tweeter, this changes the tweeter bottom frequency slope-off from 9636 Hz to 8760 Hz. Pretty big change. In my case, looking at the charts for my mid/woofer, this is a relatively realistic choice, bringing the crossover points closer together, but so is Bob's design choice of 3.3, more relaxed. However you choose to go, you can let lower highs through more or less. But a "bypass" can also be heard, changing the character of the original workhorse cap while doing a better job of bringing out the whole top with more clarity and coherency if the bypass is an equal or better cap.

What I hear from it is more detail, space, and absolute clarity across the spectrum. Between Mundorf Supreme bypasses of the same 0.33 value and the Mundorf SIO, the SIOs "disappear" more with more micro information, emptier background and more speed. I am always impressed how much the top end effects most every bit of the sound we hear...not just space, air, and shimmer....Deeper "black" with speed, and with smooth and musical accuracy, equals more texture, better ambient and spacial information, better attacks and decays, more nuance....bringing out all levels of subtle information. The mids and bass are richer and more complex with the Duelund resistors and SIO "bypasses."

Though I need more time to come to clear conclusions as to what I keep in, bypassing speaker caps is a very good option to paying more for full value caps, also allowing more tuning flexibility.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 08/17/16 at 02:42:28

Hi there Joman,

Thanks for your reply! It looks like both your capacitors, the Deulund Silver Cast  and Jupiter Flat Stacked Caps were 3.3 uF. Sounds like you liked both, but preferred the Jupiter.

I have not tweaked the speakers at all yet (though I am an incessant tube and amp roller), so just getting into this. Of course, I've read most of the threads on the topic, including the one with the wiring diagram of the rear of the speaker. The ERR's are quite astounding with me SE84CKC, though recently I've bee pushing them with a Portal Audio Panache solid state 100Wx2 channel amplifier with a Dennis Had LP-2 tube pre-amplifier behind that having NOS Valvo 12AU7's and a Radio Technique 5Y3 rectifier. Kinda getting the best of both worlds right now. I myself an interested in the CSP3 because it is supposed to be an incredible headphone amp with dynamic phones (which I have to get now b/c wife is complaining ;-)

That said, when I first got the ERR, Bob suggested the Mundorf MOX resistors, so I picked up the 5.6, 10 and 15 ohm at 10W but haven't tried them out yet. Plan on doing it soon. I think the stock resistor is a 10 ohm, and Bob stated the Mundorf Mox is much better then what the ERR shipped with stock.

As far as caps, I'm definitely looking for guidance, but as Will shows, it can be overwhelming to a cap-newbie! Will, it looks like you are also going with the 3.3 uF caps. It seems there is some synergy between particular resistor/cap pairings.

That is interesting how you are adding a second cap, Will. I am curious as to your configuration with the 0.1 uF cap upstream of the big 3.3 uF. Sounds like you are wiring them in parallel, though I am not sure how that would work.

Sounds like I should try my resistors first, before moving to the cap world, but if I wanted to play, the Mundorf silver in oil 3.3 uF would be a good place to start.

I'm aware both the caps and rez require some break in time.

Thank you both for helping me on my path!!!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 08/17/16 at 21:36:41

doukhobar. I am thinking Joman is using Duelund silver cast resistors, not caps?

Series or parallel is a big deal with caps. Parallel is simple, the added up values of the two being the new effective uF value. Series cap wiring takes calculating....with small caps after big ones, series often comes close to canceling the overall value.

With your ERRs, if you can see the cap and the resistor attached with binding posts, though you can't see the internal connections, they are likely "in series." The resistor is likely wired in-line before the cap, the "out" of the resistor connecting to the "in" of the cap. Then the cap "out" likely goes directly to the tweeter. In this setup, functionally the resistor lowers the volume of the signal by draining a given amount of power off, the amount defined by the value. Then the cap value defines how low a frequency the tweeter goes to...

To try a typical "bypass" cap, you would put the new cap "parallel" with the current 3.3 Clarity, both caps sharing the same connections. So the input wire of the bypass would connect together with the input wire of the Clarity, and the outputs of both caps connected together also. If you can do this with binding posts, just make sure the two wires both have a tightish connection. Since different wires are usually different thickness, I usually try to cross the wires a little before tightening the post. Wired in parallel, the cap bodies and wires are literally and conceptually "parallel."

I agree with trying the resistors first...I tried a bunch of values with my HR-1s too and from this you can find a general balance of how much the tweeter influences your overall sound without changing its frequency range.

Then, once you like a certain resistor value, caps could be fun to explore. Those MOX Mundorfs are pretty well liked, so a really good start. Then sometime later, Duelands, or Mundorf M-Resists could possibly take it further.

For cap quality exploration, and some talk about bypassing scattered around in article, the HumbleHiFi link I posted above is a good read, the most extensive and complete speaker cap exploration I have found.

I have not heard it, but he talks about a Vishay cap (Vishay MKP1837) that would cost a few dollars a pair being a decent "bypass" if you want a cheap experiment. I have also found that NOS Russian K40Y-9s are very nice caps and dirt cheap, there are so many around (lots on eBay, and I may have seen some at soniccraft.com).

For years I used a 2.7 Mundorf M-resist resistor followed by a 3.3 Mundorf Supreme with a 0.1 K40Y-9 bypass in parallel, and another 0.1 K40 as a literal bypass. With these HR-1 and my system, I tended to prefer both, the extra one a complete "bypass" of the resistor and caps. I ran a 0.1 K40Y-9 from the resistor "input" direct to the cap "output" post. As far as I can tell (and hear), the new cap was then functioning separate from the resistor and regular caps, literally going around them.

I just really like whatever this extra "literal bypass" does. I started my recent experiments with a Duelund 3.0 Standard Cast resistor>0.33 Mundorf SIO in parallel with the 3.3 Supreme, and a 0.1 Jupiter HT going around the lot, direct from speaker wire to tweeter wire via the binding post setup. I am back there now with all burned in and liking it...at least for now. Time will tell.

I don't know how this works, as calculating this cap value... 0.1 with the 5 ohm tweeter, is only supposed to work down to 318000 hz!!!! I am obviously missing something, as this is well above our "hearing" but I can definitely hear more ease and clarity in the highs with this little cap in. Maybe it is sort of a convoluted "parallel" arrangement.

If you go with new 3.3 caps, I have not had enough experience to recommend one or another. I know the Mundorf Mcap Supreme is a very good mid-level cap and that I liked it better than Clarity SE, Solen, Obligotto Premium and Auricaps, but that is limited and my system/tastes. The Mundorf Supreme seems a really good cap for "bypassing," my main experience. But clearly a few others in this thread like the SIOs and Jupiters.

Also, these seem to be common favorites across speakers, Duelund, Mundorf, Jupiter, Audyn, being several of those.

If you take some time to read about the better rated caps in the HumbleHiFi post, though he is using different speakers, by comparing qualities he hears, you may get some sense of what you might prefer...starting with his comments on the Clarity cap you have.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 08/27/16 at 01:22:33

Hi doukhobar,

Will is correct.. the Duelund is a carbon cast silver lead resistor, 0R68. The cap (Jupiter) is a keeper for me, but I may experiment with resistor values once I get my ZDSD.  

It's a long story.  I am replacing everything with Decware components and shortly should have the ZDSD, which will replace a Lavry DA11. Add the  CSP3, and keep the ERR's which I have.

For now I will continue to use my Cary Rocket 88R amp which is heavily updated.  

I expect that these changes and additions will significantly affect the 'sound' and so will not change anything that I have done with the caps and resistors on the ERR's.

The final step will be a Decware amp or amps, but that is going to be some time down the road.

Hope this helps  

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 08/27/16 at 04:23:54

doukhobar, I wanted to clarify my comment in the previous post about not further experimenting with resistors and caps.

Like Will, I'm in a good place, in my case with the Duelund resistors and Jupiter Flatstacked caps.  I was thinking about experimenting with different values of resistors in small increments.  I would still continue to use Duelund Carbon Cast just different values.  I would not change the Jupiter caps.

I decided against that because of the changes that I am making in my system.  Once these changes are made and the components burn in I will then determine whether or not I will experiment with Duelund resistors of different values.

Cheers.


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Luis on 10/14/16 at 20:08:52

I think I saw a message saying that Ziggy is using now the Mundorf MCap ZN over the MCap SUPREME Silver Oil (these are the ones I use) but I don´t remember where... not really sure, anyone has used them both?

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/07/16 at 13:17:00

Hey, just wanted to add that reading this thread in August i ordered a set of Duelund carbon/silver lead resistors on sale. . .and they were out of stock. Parts Connexion happily backordered them for me at sale price and sent them to me and I installed them yesterday in place of the Mundorf Supreme resistors.

Immediately I experienced what Will had described: it is as if there is no resistor. That combined with the dizzying new sound of the PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player has me spinning in a new realm of fidelity. Wow. Life is good.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/26/16 at 22:01:10

Thought I would follow up on my previous post.  I bought a second set of DSR IC's and put my amp back into the mix.  The ZDSD has been settling in nicely.  Originally I had Jupiter Flatstacked 3.3 uF caps with Duelund .68 5W resistors.  After adding the DSR's I felt that I needed to further attenuate the ERR tweeter.

Kept the Jupiter cap but... what value of resister?? and it was definitely going to be a Duelund Carbon/Silver.  I purchased 4 Duelund .82 ohm 5W resistors and tried various arrangements of .64 ohm and .82 ohm in series.

Ended up with the Jupiter Cap and a pair of .82 ohm Duelunds connected in series.  Result... in a word... MAGIC!

These Duelunds are so good that I'm tempted to try the Duelund Cast CU/AG 3.3 uF cap.  But at close to $600.00 a pop and I'm now budgeting for a pair of Zen Select amps... the Duelund caps are going to have to wait.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dave1210 on 11/26/16 at 23:04:19

Guys...I just picked up a pair of ERRx's and I had them sent to Bob Z for a couple optimizations, including Mundorf Supreme Silver & Oil caps (based on the feedback in this forum).   The reviews on the Duelund caps are fantastic, but JOMAN, as you say, they are not cheap.

This is my first pair of radial speakers and I am excited to get them into my system.  Once I get everything settled, I will experiment with the resistor value and bring in some Duelund resistors.  I appreciate all the experimentation that has already been done.  I think I'll be starting in a good place.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/26/16 at 23:54:48

Yes, my carbon/silver resistors are burned in now and I have to agree these are EXCELLENT. If I ever take my ERRs out of storage I'd be tempted to pay the big bucks for capacitors too, I can definitely understand the temptation. And thanks for mentioning that you felt the need to further attenuate the tweeters with the ZDSD--that told me what I needed to know about that source.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/27/16 at 01:15:51

Glad this has been of some help.  I thought I would further enlarge on my use of the word "Magic" in connection with the end result.

ZDSD, DSR's and Duelunds still have a ways to go before they are burned in.  Despite that, when the resistor value hit that "sweet" spot everything gelled in a way that was surprising.  It revealed not only the nature of the source but everything from the source to the speakers.

Everything became "real" on a different level.  The highs and the mids caused vocals to be articulate, emotional and organic... on a different level.  I could hear the whole instrument.  But the real shocker was the bass response.  

The ERR specs state that they go down to 34hz and the ERRx down to 39hz.  The advertised comments state "no sub need" for the ERR/ERRx.  I have to admit that up until now I had misgivings about that comment.  Once the resister value hit that "sweet" spot the misgivings vanished as the bass became so tight, articulate and present.  At times it would "growl".

Now I don't mean bass down to 20hz.  This is not the bass freaks bass (no offence intended).  The kicker is that it happened with the same amp that up until now never produced that end result!

The amp is a Cary Rocket 88R set in triode mode.  It's been updated... Mundorf silver/gold/oil coupling caps, stealth diodes, WBT binding posts, Furutech RCA inputs, Amprex BB EL84, 5star 1955 12AY7 and so on, all that certainly improved things but not to the degree that I have now.  

I changed my DAC to the ZDSD, DSR's IC's , CSP3 Preamp, major improvement, but it wasn't until I changed to the Duelund resistors and experimented until I hit the "sweet" spot that things really came together, everything was able to deliver to what appears to be it's full potential.  

Is it perfect? NO.  Still needs to burn in.  As good as my amp has become I've decided to go for the Super Zen Selects, as the budget allows.  I will be getting Steve's input on the possibility of Duelund Coupling Caps in the Selects ($$$ouch).  He's been a great support in this... journey... and I know I've probably a bit of a PIA... alright a total PIA.

Hope this helps a little more...
Cheers

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 01:30:46

Yes your impressions are very helpful. My resistors went in when I was early on in my journey with my beta testing journey of the new transport from PS Audio, which really has improved the sound of my system with it's further reduction of jitter and opening up the flow and timing of the music. And the resistors helped let all that through, though I heard it clearly via the Mundorf Supremes, there's even more clarity and beauty with these.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/27/16 at 02:14:08

Lon,

Had the same experience with the Mundorf Supremes vs. the Duelunds.  Of course now there's that "wonder what would happen if I tried the Duelund Caps???"  I guess the best is enjoy what is instead of being consumed by what could be... (ya, right... who am I kidding).

Cheers.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dave1210 on 11/27/16 at 02:18:15

Just checked Parts Connexion and many of the Duelund resistors are 55% off.  It's tempting to pick one (or more) of these up, but I don't know what level of attenuation I will need in my room.  Also, I thought the typical resistor range was 1-16 ohm for these speakers.  Weren't you guys referencing Duelund 0R68 (0.68 ohm) earlier in the thread?  Was that for a different use vs. tweeter attenuation?  

http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_duelund_cast.html

Lon...I know you like a lot of tweeter attenuation...what value Duelund resistor are you using?

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 04:05:19

Dave, I'm using DUELUND-70103

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/27/16 at 04:34:37

Dave,

I'm using a pair of Duelund 80796 in series (0R82x2=1.64ohms) These are the Carbon Cast/Silver.

History:

Originally bought ERR used, came with ceramic resistors from 1 to 5 ohms and a 3.3uF cap, forget brand - didn't like any combo at all.  I had a Lavry DA11 going into my Cary no preamp.

Switched to a Jupiter 3.3uF cap and a 0R47 M Resist Supreme.  Much better.

Read reports on the Duelund Carbon Cast and tried 0R68.  Way better.

Then replaced the Lavry with the ZDSD added CSP3 and HD800 headphones but did not hook up amp and speakers until I got DSR IC's.

Finally I sprung for the DSR's.  ERR tweeter needed attenuation.  Bought 4 Duelund Carbon/Silvers 0R82 and tried various combos of 0R68 and 0R82 in series...

1.5 ohm combo, 2.32 ohm combo, 0R82 single and 2x0R82=1.64 ohm...  with the Jupiter 3.3 uF cap.

The 1.64 ohm combo was the "magic" for me in my space with my system.  No right or wrong here it's very subjective and system dependant IMO.

I like dynamic, real, organic, voices to die for and the whole instrument in my space, and... on a budget (blew the budget a long time ago).  Don't want much do I???  Others may want something different and that's fine.

Cheers.




Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dominick on 11/27/16 at 06:43:11

Guys... I am going to follow along here.  I recently received my ERR's [Bubinga Wood] that I bought in the Classified section from a forum member.  The speakers currently have the Clarity PX 3.9uF 5% cap, and a Xicon 5W 5 Ohm resistor.... which I believe are stock.  

They are getting hooked up this upcoming week so I can start to enjoy them.  While I am soo tempted to experiment with changing them out after reading this post....I will be listening to them through my SS Yamaha amp.   This is only short term, since I will be renovating my house next year.  Once complete...I will be buying either the Torii or the ZMA.

Does anyone currently have the Err's hooked up to a SS amp, and if so what caps and resistors did you experiment with and/or currently like.  I don't have a problem spending a small amount of $$ to have fun with....but don't want to get crazy since my listening space will change drastically with a completely new room with the addition of a new Decware amp.

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dave1210 on 11/27/16 at 13:38:34

Lon...thanks!  50ohm resistor on the tweeter!  Nice to hear that the new transport is working well for you.  I read your latest review over on the PS Audio forum.  Very insightful.

JOMAN...thanks for the history and clarification.  Very helpful!  Did you get a bunch of 0R82's, because you knew you needed to move in small increments?  Do you think a single 1R6 would give you the same magic?  How do you have the two 0R82 resistors connected to each other (wires twisted together)?

Dominick...I picked up a pair of ERRx's in the classifieds too.  I will be replacing a pair of MG944 speakers with the radials, and I am looking forward to it.  Bob currently has the speakers for a few upgrades, and I should have them in my system soon.  For SS, I think Bob mentioned Mundorf M-Caps Supreme caps, but it might be worth sending him a PM.  Most everything is currently on sale at Parts Connexion, so it's a good time experiment : )

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 13:58:02

I will say 50 ohm at 5 watt is different than 50 ohm at 10 watt, considerably brighter. Love the lack of digital glare though, which is both the resistor and the new transport at work.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dave1210 on 11/27/16 at 14:23:13

Lon...that too is helpful.  Did you specifically seek out a 5 watt resistor?

Parts Connexion states a given value is either or 10 or 5 watt …it is not selectable.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 14:29:49

I just thought I might like the 50/5 and I do. The HR-1s are different than the ERRs and the tweeter height differs as well as the ability to tilt the tweeter is not there as it is in the ERRs. I haven't  heard my ERRs for about a year and a half, they are in storage and I don't have the authorized :) space to use them here in our little home (second system is basically a headphone system now). They'll likely stay there as I don't think I have the original packing to ship any longer and I've had bad experience in shipping Decware speakers. Of course someone locally might enjoy them.

I had to wait ten weeks or more for these resistors as they are not in stock at Parts Connexion, though they did order and ship them three months or so later at the sale price. I just recently ordered 39 ohm/10 watt resistors to try out but again, they are backordered. I suspect these will be a little darker and I could attenuate the tweeter output less via the treble cut circuit, may present a nice sound, we'll see in three months or so!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by mark58 on 11/27/16 at 14:58:50

Lon, I currently use the Mundorf Supreme 10 ohm/20 watt resistors on my HR-1s. How would the Dueland 10 ohm / 10 Watt, CAST Carbon/Silver resistors compare to the Mundorfs?  Is it worth $50 to try them?  Mark.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 16:07:15

It's hard for me to say Mark because I have heard neither the 10 ohm Mundorf nor the 10 ohm Duelund. And I have compared a 33/10 Mundorf with a 50/5 Duelund, not exact value comparisons.

I will say though that the Duelund impressed me immediately with a clarity and speed that was different than the same qualities in the Mundorf. "Airier" and "quicker" and more open, with nearly the difference margin as that between the Mundorf compared to the regular "sand" resistors one can get from Radio Shack.

So just as the new Transport I'm using diminishes a tiny bit the full-bodied note sound and a tiny bit of the warmth to the sound (replacing that with precision and perfected timing) similar differences are found with the two resistors. Now if you told me that I would say "doesn't sound like what I would like, I like the full-body and warmth" but. . . in listening I clearly do like these differences.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by mark58 on 11/27/16 at 16:20:43

Thanks Lon.  I'll probably order them tomorrow.  I'll give myself a day to think about it.  I haven't changed anything for maybe 6 months or more.  Whenever I think about a tube roll, I say nah...don't do it...haha.  Things are sounding great.  Mark.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 16:39:11

Cool. I hope they're in stock and you don't have to wait a few months!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by mark58 on 11/27/16 at 16:58:57

I went ahead and ordered them.  We'll soon see if they are in stock :)  

Reading reviews and descriptions online, I'm confident that this change will be more than a tube change and lord knows how much I've spent on tubes.  No one had a negative impression of these...so I'm in!  Mark.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dominick on 11/27/16 at 17:13:13

Dave...I was actually going to buy the speakers you bought...which are beautiful!! Rick had contacted me when he decided to sell them, but I had already bought my Err's.  

Since mine are the previous versions....I was going to send them to Bob for upgrades, but decided to hold off for now and just enjoy them, since my system and room will change dramatically next year.  I had already contacted Bob via email, but he wants me to call him.   We are going to discuss replacement caps and resistors, and a good place for me to start with my SS amp.  

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 17:33:13

Great Mark. I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with them, and if not I bet you could get most of your money back selling them as the sale price is exceptionally good. . . . .

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 11/27/16 at 18:41:13

Lon,

For clarification, did you experience the sound difference between 5 and 10 watt resistors with the Duelands, or was it with other resistors? I remember this with wirewounds, but have not tried with others.

Dave,

Likely worth it to experiment with some less expensive cast ceramic resistors first to get closer to what you like before getting more expensive ones. ZYGI may send some with your speakers, but I have a range of 5w (3R-15R) Wirewounds I could send if you want to use them as tests?

Then going for the Duelands would be a different thing, much more refined sound, but you might be in a closer value range, maybe even hit is right-on at first try. In the partsconnexion catalog, the smaller value Dueland caps are 5 watt and then all go to 10 for the larger values. I wonder if this is part of why they had to special order for Lon?

To illustrate Joman's point about subjective, I am using 10w 3R Dueland Standard Silvers in my HR1s as opposed to Lon's 5w 50R in his HRs, and Joman's Cast 1R6 total in his ERRs.

I started with the brown "Standard" Duelands: "Standard Graphite (Carbon)/Silver Resistors." Then, making an order for other things anyway, and still on sale, I got some black Duelands, same 3R value: "CAST-Graphite (Carbon)/Silver Resistors."

As I posted earlier, the Standards to me sounded like "no resistor" or maybe better than none....very open, spacious, and "transparent," yet smooth and "musical." Pretty flawless.

I ran the new black/Cast pair in my Frybaby for several days, and then in the system for several, so they are at least sort of burned in. I immediately noticed they were warmer/denser/darker, yet still with excellent and refined space and detail. These to me are not like "no resistor." Very good...but a different "flavor," that I would not call definitively "transparent."

I have to use the Casts more to be sure they are fully burned in, but at this point, for my preferences and system/room, I prefer the Brown Standards.

The black/cast resistors "signature," though notably better to me than M-Resists, changes the sound in similar directions.... more obviously bigger, warmer, denser than Dueland Standards.

For me, 3R  wirewounds having sounded tonally about right value-wise (though not very refined), and Mundorf 3R3s (they did not have 3R) were weighted more toward dark/dense/smooth... good qualities for refinement, but lacking the openness I wanted ...same value, sounding like a different value due to tonal choices. Still they had more refined presentation that clearly revealed openness, textures, air, micro detail with my setup, but not quite enough. So I got some M-Resist 2R7s and .6 less resistance was really "right" here with the caps I had in. Mundorf smooth, but open.

At this point, I am guessing that this may be the case with the Cast Duelands compared to wirewounds. Like the M-resists, to match tonal feeling more closely, a little less resistance with the Casts may more closely create a similar feeling to wirewounds.

My sense is that the Standards are a closer match to wirewounds value for value.

Here, in my early tests, I find the Brown Standard Duelands 3R very, very good...beautifully open, spaciousness and smooth. And I find the Cast beautiful also, but a little too colored for me, too much attempt at warm smoothness...perhaps that trap of trying to create "analog" sound, or perhaps I just need a 2R7!

The Casts actually sound like a bigger wire does in an IC or speaker cable...it sounds like it lets more signal density through, in this case tweaking my "Over-density meter." Again...the tastes/system thing....not better or worse, but different.

My system is already smooth and dense though, so easy to kick into "thick." This may change some with more burnin, but I never got this impression with the Standard Duelands...so I am comfortable about the basics of "signature" comparison here. They share most sound qualities, but are pretty different too, the cast bigger/denser, and the the Standard more open/spacious.

For Mark58, preferring warm/less bright in general in his systems, and liking the darkish/smoothish weighting of the 10R M-resist, the black, Cast might be a better choice than the Standard.

Making it a little more complicated, not only tweeter angle, but the caps and cap values you use will likely effect your ultimately preferred resistor value also, that is if you want to go that deep.

A darker cap at the same value as a brighter one could well require balancing with slightly different resistor values or slightly different resistor tonal values, i.e. Standard versus Cast, or a little less resistance versus more.

For example, I like a bit more cap value than ZYGI had arrived at for the HR1s (at least back when I got them). They originally had 3.3 caps, and I like 3.63 now (a 3.3 with a parallel .33 bypass). This takes the frequency range the caps let through a little further into the lower highs...from about 9600 to about 8700 Hz with this tweeter. In the balance, there is more of the high end played through the tweeter for the resistor work on.

Also, aside from resistor sound, subtly speaking, even with very low value resistors, you will hear the differences and the synergy thing will be different depending on everything else in a system room, ....just like Joman points out. Going further, in my setup, with the right caps, even a straight copper wire was pretty good in my initial tests, no resistor.

My current setup:

I almost got some sale priced Jupiter Flat Stacks based on Joman and others liking them in general, but dragged my feet too long, and they sold out at soniccraft. Talking with Jeff there, he said he liked the newer version, some things better about it, so I got a pair of round 3.3 100v Jupiter VTs.

I don't know if this is specific to this 100v VT cap, but he suggested I check them out the right way, and backwards. Jupiter has a line on the side intended to go closest to ground to help directionally setup their caps the way they like. I started "backwards" and liked it, so left them. Doing some minor tests the other day, I find these caps are more refined with micro information and openness "backwards," yet still very smooth and warmish....very nice indeed. I am sure there is more to come as they have only been in a few weeks, but 3.3 Jupiter VTs (vintage), "bypassed" with .33 Mundorf Silver in Oils, with 3R Dueland Standard silver resistors. This is very nice here in my already modded HR-1s. Warm, detailed, smooth, sweet....altogether very involving, and in a different category that 3.3 Mundorf Supremes bypassed with Mundorf Silver in Oils.

With more time on the Jupiters I will do a direct comparison, but they sound quite promising from only several weeks of play...very good detail complexity, yet warm and smooth.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 19:07:39

Will, I only really recall this with the Deulunds and am unsure if I used 5 watt resistors before.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 11/27/16 at 19:12:04

Thanks Lon. I guess it figures....Now I wonder about the 5 watt Casts!@#$%^&

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 11/27/16 at 19:18:07

Stick with what you are happy with! :)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 11/27/16 at 20:09:42

;)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/27/16 at 21:46:51

I'll try to attach picture of the set up...

In answer to your questions...

I started with a a low value because initially I did not like the result of the high value resisters that came with the ERRs.  In order to do that I had to go with Duelund 5W.

As Lon pointed out a 10W may sound different to the 5W.  So as I experimented I did not want to introduce new variables.  That's why I stayed with the 5W and decided to arrange them in series.

I wanted to determine how high a value would begin to affect dynamics and resolution.  As it turned out a 2 ohm+ value began to have a noticeable affect on dynamics in my system and space.  Some may prefer that.  In my case I did not want to give up any of the dynamics, or resolution.

I had no way of knowing before hand what the "sweet" spot would be.  Everything gelled with 2- .82 ohm arranged in series or 1.64 ohm.  Now keep in mind that my system still has to burn in and so things may change.  In a month or so I'll follow up.

The leads on the Duelunds are nice and long, although a bit delicate.  So I had to use care in connecting the resistors.  Also the 5W are half the length of the 10W - easier to arrange in series in the space available.  Once I settled on the value I was able to re arrange the resisters to a more compact arrangement.

Hope this helps...

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/28/16 at 14:45:58

Nice post Will...

Got to admit, you've got me a little curious about the Duelund Standards and I could do a pair of 0R80 in series.

But, my ZDSD is burning in, the DSR's are new and the Duelund casts are new, so I'm going to put off scratching this itch until everything settles in and until I get my Super Zens and they burn in.  At that point a comparison would have far more relevance.

More on subjectivity... A very good friend of mine wanted to try one of my hardcore Islay Scotches.  Before the first sip hit his throat he blurded out..."UGH! ITS LIKE CHEWING ON TAR!!!"  "GET AN AMBULANCE NOW".

So now I keep a bottle of Coke and the cheapest whisky I can find for him while I sip on my Islays.  We are still very good friends.  As Lon so aptly put... he sticks to what he likes and I stick to what I like.

I refrain from making any sarcastic remarks when he is downing his hi ball because I keep in mind that once in a while I get a hankering for Mac&Cheese.

Subjectivity at its best!


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 11/28/16 at 17:32:38

I really do think about 5w versus 10w after Lon's and your comments. It looks like we have 4!!! sound choices with the two types of Duelund resistors!

Subjective for sure! But also, based on the vast variances of system/room setups, choices toward better getting the balance of everything we have better is the big player I think. Beyond subjectivity, what we perceive as a way to improve the whole system/room is a huge wildcard!

But no doubt here, the Standard 10w are really good, and the 10w Cast less so, even though it has obviously very refined and brilliant qualities...just may not be quite the right balancing tool for me at this point in my ever-developing system/room.

As your ZDSD burns in it will continue to open and clarify, and it is a lot about tonal/signal density. How much 5w opens the Cast over 10w, I can't say...but it sounds like you are doing some serious tuning and the 5w must sound really good there! But if the need arises, 5w to 5w, if you want to reduce density some, while opening spaciousness some, it seems the Standards will do that.

You may well have come onto the perfect balance though, the 5w opening the Cast character... their excellent detail within their smooth/dense qualities.

I have been doing a lot of adjusting these last several months too, but trying to keep somewhat on top, getting a relatively full, "burnt in" impression of each change as I go. I got a Frybaby finally for beginning/non-listening burnin, and that really helps!

But I get the resistance to going too far into many things going on.

That said, I started this recent flurry I think with the Duelund Standard resisters and Mundorf Silver/oil bypassing my old Mundorf Supremes in the HR1s...very worthy improvement!...then Jupiter copper caps replacing the Jupiter HT coupling caps in my MKIV...really good again!...then trying different IC configurations and wires. One pair is Duelund round silver/cotton/oil, and Duelund Rhodium IC ends. But mainly I have a set each of KLE Pure and Absolute ends, and exploring different wire sizes and wire combinations, and different configurations, and geometries. The cores lately have been Mundorf and Neotech silver/gold wire, with Neotech copper litz, Duelund round silver/cotton, or VHAudio's very good silver/cotton........really, really interesting!...in the midst all this, several weeks ago, I replaced Mundorf Supremes with Jupiter VTs in my speaker cap/resistor setup....again...really good......

Then, in the last several days came some more deep reaching mods.....a Furutech Rhodium IEC inlet in the Torii....First impressions: very very good!....Then a TDK 2511 volume potentiometer in the CSP3...First impressions: also very, very good!

Where I thought I was going though!!!!! The 10w Standard Duelund Resistors have held up through all of this really well! A good choice in the midst of much change tells a big tale to me.

Conceptually, it should have seemed pretty obvious, but how much these two mods did surprised me. They each set up fundamental clarification, with better speed and musically smooth resolution top to bottom.

Better power transmission from power treatment, to cable, to feeding everything in the Torii, well, with Furutech's skill at power sound, in this case, pure copper with just-right Rhodium plate, after some burnin, sounds rich, but with nuanced clarity. And, likewise, the TDK pot being right in the thick of the CSP3 signal development...a notably transparent, smooth, quiet, natural sounding pot gave further quietness and clarification with musicality. Right in the middle between the DAC and amp, this was logically a pretty big deal. Not sure if one or both, or maybe I got a little better ground from redoing things.....but I don't hear as much transformer hum, or as much of the hum conveyed to the speakers, contributing to the blacker background and more solid and translucent resolution.

These are so fundamental to the sound of every part of the amps, and therefore everything before and after, that they made all the previous, more peripheral changes say more what they had to say! They seriously improved all improvements! ;)

Thinking about your interest in going further with Dueland caps, seems if we keep adding really good parts, it can be quite illuminating now and in the future! [And don't forget the rage around Jupiter Coppers compared to Duelunds.] Whatever it is, though everything good helps everything good, everything really good is better at helping everything else!

But for me, "discovering" these fundamental things in the amps...now I see a deeper level of the likelihood of sort of logarithmic potential opening up from each great part helping the rest.

It is not that all the previous experiments were not great successes, but their deeper potential came out more from these little fundamental changes. At the same time, how good the IEC and volume pot are was revealed more due to everything else before and after being so good!

They really capped my cap and resistor exploration! ;)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/28/16 at 18:44:41

Will your comments are interesting...

Seems were coming to the same conclusion with slightly different components, subjectivity aside.  Quality does matter.  Your results with the TDK and Furutech seem to support that as well.

I started this "journey" in an effort to prove to myself that I could go from a high power system to a low power system with more satisfying results.  That challenged conclusions I had come to over many years.  All that time the one constant was... Engineering and Quality Matters.  I've now proven that to myself to the point where I'm totally comfortable in getting 2 watt Super Zens.

I was pretty set on Super Zen Monoblocks to get the 5 or 6 watts just in case.  But after messing with the Duelunds, I'm thinking of getting the SE84UFO3 Monos being pretty sure that the 2.7 watts will be ample for what I want to achieve.

I'll be talking to Steve about this, but I'm of the opinion that to get the transparency, resolution, emotion and richness and so on... it's more about the engineering and quality components that work seamlessly as a whole than about power.

That's a huge change for me!


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 11/28/16 at 19:24:10

Yes, quality matters, safer bets especially when that quality is met with praise from a multitude of folks with good ears, and from different orientations, and different systems.

I guess, for me, it is about quality parts and engineering, but also power to a degree. But this is with the speakers I use!

In my rooms, my MG944 - 94 dB, and HR1s - 92 dB, for overall use, my 12 watt Blue Torii seems to be my bottom limit... though the next lower I have tried to use is an SE34II and later a Rachel @ about 6w.

I keep trying to get myself to explore some really efficient speakers, allowing lower power, but I can't seem to get off the trip I am on!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 11/28/16 at 22:55:22

I would agree with that...

It'll be interesting to compare results.

Cheers

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dave1210 on 11/29/16 at 11:45:23

Lots of helpful information here guys.

I won't have the ability to change caps as easily on the ERRx's, because the cap isn't on the outside, like the ERR's and the older HR-1's.  So, I will be working with the Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil 3.9 uF.

Will...I'm going to take your advice and use a set of less expensive resistors to get in range for my room/system/preferences.  I will talk to Bob, but I may take you up on your offer for the Wirewounds.  I appreciate the offer and I'll let you know via PM.

Joman...it's very helpful to see a picture.  It's the first picture I've seen of the back of the older speakers.  I would like having the ability to change the cap so easily.  I will talk to Bob at some point about  separate crossover boxes, for a slightly more elegant solution.  Similar to what Living Voice does at the top of their Auditorium Series.

I am relatively new (past 5 years) to the low power/higher efficiency route.  I started with the SuperZen and a pair of MG944's.  My room is fairly big, so this was great for late night listening, but wasn't quite enough for everything else.  I ultimately ended up with a ZMA after multiple discussions with Steve.  I switched from a Torii to a ZMA the day before they were to start the build!  

Next part of the journey for me is to really dive in and understand these radial drivers.  I have always had typical forward firing box speakers in my room and this should be an interesting change.  I'm excited for the next stage.    
     

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 11/29/16 at 12:18:30

Just noticed this thread has picked up. Just ordered 2 pair of dueland resistors. a pair of 5w and 10w for my ERR's. I will report back what I find.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 11/29/16 at 14:12:38

Dave,

I suspect the Silver Oils will be really nice. The ones I got for "bypassing" really did a good thing here...If they are new, they will take quite while to really come out, but they end up with very nice tone...excellent detail and subtle articulation with natural and smooth qualities. As I suspect you have found, they are respected caps.

No problem on the resistors. I will dig around a see what all I can find in case you need them.

I think yours are the most beautiful speakers I have seen! I really like the solutions Bob came up with on the ERRx design, and with that wood arrangement! Nice!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Dave1210 on 12/01/16 at 11:27:16

Will...the first thing I said to Bob were that the speakers looked absolutely stunning.  I agree, they are some of the most beautiful speakers I have seen.  
   
I have really been enjoying my system recently.  I'm not sure if the ZMA has seasoned further, but music is very engaging in my room at the moment.  I have transparency, liquidity and an overall purity and openness that sounds very real.  In many ways I'll be starting all over with the ERRx's, especially because the caps will be new and will need time to break in.  

Side story... I grew up listening to and playing music (piano, saxophone guitar) my entire childhood and I have a great appreciation for acoustic music.  That said, I moonlight as a producer of electronic dance music.   I spent a good deal of my free time in college dj'ing electronic music and I still enjoy the music.  

We had some friends over the other evening and we were listening to some of the new the dance tracks I have been working on.  I typically work with headphones so as not to disturb the rest of the family/neighbors, so I hadn't heard most of these songs on my system.  We were struggling a bit to feel the physical nature of music.  

In that moment I wish I had 1000 watt mono-blocks and big speakers with crossovers that could rock the house, but that system wouldn't work for me 90% of the time.    As I was getting 'producer' advice from my friend he asked me why tubes?...the simple answer was that they sound more like real music to me.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 12/01/16 at 17:48:18

Got that! Well implemented tubes are so beautiful. For my tastes, I have had to tighten bass in both of my rooms, with 944s and HR1s, physically with damping, with tubes, room treatments, and EQ.

Also speaker cables. I don't recall what you ended up with, but I have no doubt anymore that big cables made of one large wire cause slurring and muddle, whereas the same gauge cable that has a similar conglomerate total gauge, made up of a number of smaller wires, well implemented with good material choices and just-right twisting, can resolve slurring and skin effect with musicality. The problem with the change can be that we adjust our tubes and all to whatever cables we are using, and the cleaner, more articulate signal from cable design and geometry that solves these issues can sound intense when we have been adjusting to solve muddle. Another cable issue I have found is that we may choose cables that are too small gauge for really deep and satisfying bass because they sound better in the presence of system/room muddle. With a cable that is too small, once the room and EQ are sorted out, the cable may just not be able to go as low and as powerfully as larger cables of the same basic design can.

Since all else is really good, if you are using software, you could very likely enhance your room treatments with careful bass management. For me, this is a matter fairly specific, carefully placed (and pretty narrow) additions in the 6-650 Hz range for upper bass note articulation, a narrow Mid-bass bump around 130-145 for body articulation, and careful cuts in muddle zones, here, 45ish and in the neighborhood of 70 give or take. Also here, I do general bass shelf cuts, around 120, and a big dump at 18-20 Hz. These may well be different for your setup, but it is surprising how a cut here and bump there can articulate bass, making it quite big and satisfying. Even relatively innocuous sounding muddle along with weak articulation areas can make the bass seem much weaker than it is!

It is easy to find the problem areas by creating a narrow EQ bump of 3-5 dB, maybe .2-.3 wide to start with, and slowly drag it through the bass range. The overboard areas will really show with aberrant resonance or muddle, and week areas show by the bass sounding better!

I have to play with it for while since different recordings present different issues, but fine-tuning just while playing what I want to hear anyway, over time, I can get where everything works pretty well, and notably better than with no EQ! I actually EQ the whole range, but just the bass changes the whole range, and you may well be able to bring more complete sounding bass that really can grab and/or amaze you! Maybe!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/06/16 at 15:03:21

Put in the dueland 10w last night and the sound was definitely different. Tighter, louder?, more forward, darker yet slightly shrill but only listened for a couple of hours. Some songs I enjoyed others not so much.
Tonite I'm going to combine the 5w and 10w and see how that sounds. Does it matter the order they are in when I combine them? Joman I appreciate the picture since I've never combined values of resistors before.

Thanks

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/06/16 at 23:02:21

Wired the two resistors in series (dueland 80795 and dueland 74957) for a combo of 15w. Now I understand the positive reviews. I'm using the Cast version and did order the standards to compare but I am enjoying the sound. Less airy for sure but direct tight and most noticeable is the speed.  I'm in hour 3 and these will stay in for a while, playing with the volume pots on the amps but having fun. They most certainly have a signature.

Listening to Greensky Bluegrass' past my prime and I'm hearing all the notes.



Thanks for sharing guys.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/07/16 at 12:33:54

Will,

Curious since I am using a 3.9 cap in my ERR's what resister values would lead me to fall within that 10%? I love the huge airiness I had with my 20w mundorf resistor. The 15 w duleand total is fantastic but almost too intense (played a few L. Cohen songs last night and it seemed as though I was too close to the music if that makes sense.  I'd love to get it in between. Would I look to increase the ohm value or lesson it in my resistors.
I appreciate the links you provided to do the math I just want to make sure I understand the changes I am making and learning from them.
Please anyone chime in.

Thanks

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/10/16 at 00:52:49

JD,

Couple of things I'd like to point out...80795 is 5W .68ohm resister, 74957 is 10W 1ohm resister.  In series that will be a total 1.68 ohm value but one is 5W and one is 10W.  When I bought my resistors I was told that a 5 watt may sound slightly different from a 10 watt and it was recommended that I stay with the same wattage of resistors.

So I bout 4, 5 watt .82 ohm cast/silver for a similar total value - 1.64 ohm per speaker.

My caps are 3.3 uF.

So when I tell you what the result was/is with my set up please keep that in mind.  First, let them burn in.  You should notice a change and the sound stage will shift further back.  Although they will let the dynamics through - for sure!

I noticed a similar affect to what you are describing.  What also exacerbated the situation is that one set of my Silver Reference IC's were very new and my ZDSD was still burning in.  

The Duelunds now have about 30 hours on them.  I was told to give them a minimum of 50 hours.

Since my ZDSD is well into the burning in process I started to adjust the output settings and it is now at -18 dB.  My CSP3 - headphone calibration adjustments are at 7, output gain at 6 and main volume between 8 - 10.

The sound stage moved back.  The resolution is incredible.  Listening to Cyrus Chestnut Plays Elvis it was as if I could see his fingers striking the piano keys, as if I could see the drummer beating out the rhythm on the cymbals and there was no, and I mean no blurring.  It was as if I could see all the musicians each one clearly doing there thing playing in harmony.  Voices are exceptionally expressive.  It's as if the performers are in the room in front of you.  Bass is very tight and articulate.

I feel that the Duelunds played a significant part in allowing all the up front equipment to let their very best come through (ZDSD + CSP3).

Now for the bad part... I also realized in all this just how utterly terrible the room acoustics are, more so now than before.  Because the system is so dynamic and resolving the deficiencies of the room acoustics became more clearly evident.  Volume setting much over 10 and the effect of room acoustics can be heard clearly, very clearly.

Good Part... the ERR's are a very, very forgiving speaker.  Understanding all of this has helped to figure out what I need to do next.  In our condo, that is being built, I will be doing what I can to improve room acoustics, for sure!

Now, my system is very dynamic, you could say a touch intense if the musicians play with intensity but if they are "calmer" the result is a delicate presentation, gave me goose bumps a couple of times.  The sound stage is large but not as forward as it was, perhaps intimate describes it best.  This is not every ones preference and theres nothing wrong with that.

It may not be yours but before you come to any conclusions let the new components burn in.  That may be difficult to do if you are like me, as patience is not one of my... best virtues. (#$$@&* WAITING!)

In my case the Duelunds will stay, but as my system continues to burn in I may make further gain setting adjustments... after I give things some more time to settle in.

Hope this helps...





Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/10/16 at 01:07:45

JD,
Noticed a couple of spelling errors in my last post, please excuse.  I'm beginning to hate auto correct, it's becoming my worst enema!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/10/16 at 02:23:43

JD,

I think I should clarify my "soundstage moved back" comment in my previous post.  

I'm now listening to Stan Getz, Bossa Nova (Verve).  The soundstage is not in my face as it was when the Duelunds were newly installed.  It has spread out, more space between the musicians and, between the musicians and me.  With my Mundorf Supreme it was as if I was sitting in the middle of the venue I'm now in third or second row, or a table that is closer to the musicians - intimate.

The sound stage is far more organized.  When the sax cut in I spun my head around - it's right here, brassy, throaty.  On one cut the musicians start to talk amongst themselves quietly, I spun around once again, they could have been behind me.  Really "sneaky", totally unexpected.

Now get this...  as I'm typing this I'm off to the side of my left speaker! Stable, large, organized sound stage, with a huge sweet spot even though I'm sitting in this position relative to the system.

I believe that the Duelunds are contributing, more so than causing the effect. After all the upstream components are the key.  

Cheers

 


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/10/16 at 23:13:08

Joman,

Thanks for the info/clarification. I will definitely let them burn in. If the soundstage does relax and widen then I could see/hear some fantastic sound.  I was apprehensive about combining the 2 diff watts but since I am currently using 20w I thought just a little less might sound interesting. I appreciate your insight it is extremely helpful. I have a heavily treated room (12 diffusers and 3 large absorbers) so any change I make can have dramatic effect. My current setup allows for a beautiful listening environment but the sound is slightly relaxed which I really enjoy but lately have been wanting a slightly more forward/dynamic sound without turning the volume all the way up. That next step/challenge can be so enticing...
Enjoy the journey and happy listening. I love that Getz album.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/11/16 at 04:01:30

JD... looks like we're on the same journey although on different junctions.

Let me know how you make out.


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/19/16 at 22:42:32

Joman,

I couldn't make it 50 hrs. Maybe after the holidays I will go back and try them again but in the end that combo I tried was too shrill, upfront and lacking the space and air I crave. I got to 30 hrs or so. Was starting to stress because I have my family coming this wknd and they all love listening to music so I went back to my Mundork resistors to make sure the vinyl they bring will sound up to par.
Listening to some Ray LaMontagne and boy its ethereal
JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 12/20/16 at 02:20:21

JD, Sorry not to reply earlier. For some reason this site, on rare occasion, stops sending me notifications on a thread I have been getting them from. I stumbled onto you and Joman's conversation on the ten most recent page.

Sounds good the sound from the Mundorfs again!

To figure this out easier, I think the thing to look at most is the resistance value. That is the one that uses an R in the number, presumably indicating Resistance. They could be 5, 10 or 20 Watt, but 3R3, or 5R, or whatever resistance (R) is the more important number.

If you are using Cast resistors and one is 3R3 (10W), it attenuates the tweeter volume by imposing a resistance of 3.3 on the signal...robbing that amount of energy from the tweeter. A 5R (10W) takes more signal energy from the tweeter, and a 10R more, progressively reducing tweeter volume.

So if you can compare the Mundorf Resistance value you like, the R thing, that would help.

Then from Lon and Joman's reports, the wattage apparently can change things tonally as well, but likely less so than the resistance value.

Then there is the difference between the Standard and Cast which I spoke to earlier. I have Standard and Cast now, both 10W and 3R. I tried the cast again, burned in ones, and still I prefer the Standards. I find the 10W Cast have more "signature" than I prefer at this point, but it may be a good tuning tool one day!

Whatever. If you like the Casts for the most part, and Leonard is too much in the face, a higher combined R value would tone him down. If your combined resistance of the Duelunds is the same as the Mundorf's Resistance, you may just need one Dueland with a little higher resistance. Or if you want to stay with two resistors in series, it seems that 10W may tone things down a little more than 5W of the same resistance. So it may be that a slightly higher R value for your second resistor that is also 10W rather than 5W would sync them (now both 10W) as well as adjust the tone to be a little softer.

Does this make sense?

Have fun!

Will







Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 12/21/16 at 20:19:41

JD said:
Quote:
Curious since I am using a 3.9 cap in my ERR's what resister values would lead me to fall within that 10%? I love the huge airiness I had with my 20w mundorf resistor.


Hey JD. Forgot this. I understand the 10% thing to be associated with changing capacitor values. It seems to be a general guideline to avoid getting off the original design too much...I think I recall it is to do with phase? Can't remember. But then, if your speakers were designed to have 3.3 caps, with 3.9 you are over 10% and sounding good, so apparently there are latitudes, presumably depending on specific designs.

Then the resistor, at least with your speakers and mine, are pretty much a matter of preference. The cap value determines how low in the frequency range your tweeter goes. And the resistor value determines how loud the tweeter is, adjusting its volume and how it balances with the other drivers.

The Mundorfs resistors you have sound like a great thing there!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/23/16 at 14:55:10

Hey JD,  I have a few more hours on the Duelunds...

Wills comments are correct.  More important than the wattage is the resistance when attenuating the tweeter. Sometimes you have to experiment until you get the sweet spot.  Duelund Carbon Cast, even when discounted are pricey to experiment with.  I would stay with the same wattage if you are using multiples in series or parallel.

I have found that with too high a resistance the dynamics/speed of the system is affected.  Dynamics/speed is what makes the system interesting to me.  It's a balancing act that can get to be a little frustrating if one is uncompromising - like me.

So a cheaper resister, possibly the 5 watt Mundorf, could be used to determine the resistance value that is right for you, but (always a but) tonally they will be different and that may complicate things a little.

I have found that the Duelund Carbon Cast are very, very revealing (interesting).  In my case, on certain discs, I am getting a lot of energy (not shrillness) with certain female vocals when they belt out the high notes.  I believe that the Duelunds are revealing the nature of that recording and the nature of the Mundorf EVO Silver/Gold/Oil coupling caps in my Cary amp.  So if I were to make an adjustment, being uncompromising as I am, it would be to change out the coupling caps not the resistors on the speakers.

I'm going to be selling the amp so I will not be changing the caps in it, and they are a very good choice for many out there.

Not everyone is as uncompromising (psychotic?), and I do find Lon's comments about the Duelund Standard resistors intriguing.  In my case I do not want to go beyond a 2 ohm value.  Partsconnexion has the Duelund Standard in 10 watt 1.8 ohm @ $13.95 ea.

HMMMMM??  I'm going to give these a try (singles) not because I'm not happy with the Carbon Cast, but because the itch is killing me.  

Stay tuned...


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/27/16 at 13:21:35

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the insight. Woke up in the middle of the night dreaming about my old psvane 6ca7t (we are not that normal haha) so I decided to switch out my rft el34 for my old psvane 6ca7t and forgot how dynamic these tubes were. It may be that I was unable to listen to tubes for a few days cuz of Christmas but jeez I forgot how much air these babies have.
I will stick with my Mundorf resistors for the time being.
Enjoy the tunes.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 12/27/16 at 16:21:03

Sounds like a good plan JD. With the sound the Mundorfs being that good there.... 8-).

I forgot you are usually using RFT EL34s. I have never been able to use them long in my setup with their very clear top, their kind of thick bottom and the middle a mix of both. Somehow the Mundorf's "smoothing" qualities make some sense to me with this tube.

I find the balance exciting, but also unnerving, the middle literally sounding a little too much like a mix of the top clarity and bottom density here...like two things. If memory serves, the Winged C EL34 is similar, another well loved tube I could never "get." But that is me, and my room/system. It is cool how we can find a beautiful balance in different ways!

Glad it is all so good!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/30/16 at 01:06:28

JD,
Picked up a couple of Duelund Standard Carbon resistors 1R8 or 1.8 ohm value and a couple of Duelund Carbon Cast also in 1.8 ohm.  Both are 10 watt.

I could have compared the Carbon Cast that I have configured in series for a value of 1.62 ohm to a pair of standard carbon in 1.6 ohm.  But that would mean comparing a series configuration to a single resistor and I did not think that would have been a good comparison.  

Also I thought that it wouldn't be a bad idea to increase the resistance slightly.  In my earlier experimenting I went from a 1.62 ohm to a 2.24 ohm value and found that for me the 2.24 was definitely not the ticket.  So 1.8 ohm was available in both the Standard and the Carbon Cast.

How much difference can .18 ohm make??? Turns out a lot.  Also the difference between the Carbon Cast and the Standard Cast also is considerable.  

I would agree with Lon's comments on the Standard Cast.  Considerably less energy while retaining good resolution. Smoother, but lacking some of the leading edge attack.

Carbon Casts are far more resolving and revealing.  The leading edge attack is so much more present and defined. So is the energy.

Best example I can use is that of going from the Decware Studio Grade IC's to the Decware Silver Reference IC's.  Similar effect.

So I will be leaving the Carbon Cast 1.8 ohm 10 watt in the system and will put about 40 hours on them.  At that time I will compare them to the 1.62 ohm series configuration as that is about the hours of use that they have.  I also MAY try the Carbon Cast 2.0 ohm but will not go beyond that value.

This is simply to give you some additional insight and not to suggest that you should do the same.  If the Mundorf are the ticket for you then that is what you should stay with.

Something else that may help...   Some time ago I went with an all Linn System.  This was at the time when PRaT was their primary goal and everything else was secondary.  I ended up wanting the PRaT but not the "dry" type of sound that came with it.  Eventually I stumbled on Decware and had many conversations with Steve.  Based on the conversations and the subsequent purchases that I made, I concluded that I could have PRaT without the dryness, but it would take some work to reach my goal.  (I did mention that I could be somewhat uncompromising at times)

So that's what I am doing now... being stubborn and working at it.






Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 12/30/16 at 14:26:42

JD,

Have to make a correction on the previous post pertaining to the resistor values...

The Duelund Carbon Cast 5W in series - 1.64 ohm and 2.32 ohm

Currently I am burning in the Duelund Carbon Cast 10W 1.8 ohm

Because of the difference that small incremental steps are making I will likely try the Carbon Cast 10W 2.0 ohm.

Lot of money in resistors.  But the difference they are making is the difference that, in past purchases, some components made and that cost a lot more.

The Duelund Standard Carbon are not for me.   Also I have come to the conclusion that the Duelund Carbon Cast are not necessarily for "smoothing" out a speaker/system.  They are more suited to making a very good system much more dynamic, organic and natural.  However, they are absolutely merciless in revealing the character of upstream components, which in my case is a good thing.

Hope this rounds out my previous comments.


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 12/30/16 at 18:54:58

Joman,

I always enjoy hearing about the journey we are all on keep the updates coming. I've decided to stick to my Mundorf's. Going back to my old psvane 6ca7-t accomplished a lot of what I was looking for when I went resistor shopping. It is something I will come back to but at this time I have no interest dealing with break in time.  
Enjoy the tunes and curious to hear where you end up.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 01/07/17 at 03:45:04

JD,

Here's where I'm at with the Duelund resistor experiment...

Tried the following:
#1. Duelund Standard Cast 10W 1.8 ohm - no go, not resolving enough for me
#2. Duelund Carbon Cast 5W .82 ohm in series = 1.64 ohm value
#3. Duelund Carbon Cast 10W 1.8 ohm
#4. Duelund Carbon Cast 10W 2.0 ohm

#3. On the speakers and for now and will stay on. about 40 hours on them still a way to go.  Best balance between #2 and #4

#4. has the least number of hours but like you at this point I don't want to spend any more time with these and it's very unlikely they'll go back in.  They are the least interesting of the three for me.  Attenuates the tweeter to the point where the energy is reduced at the expense of coherence, timing/tempo, and resolution in the high's. A little too dark for me, may be just right for some.

#3 seems to have the best balance of the three in my current space.  Wife likes these the best of the three also.  The tweeter is still a little energetic but the resolution is excellent, timing/tempo is there and a nice balance between "airiness and focus".  May be a little too resolving for some, but for me, any less resolution and I loose interest.

#2.  The most resolving. With the most energy in the highs.  In a space like mine it can be a little much, even for me, even though I crave the resolution and drive.  Once I move into our permanent space I'll try them again as I will be doing fairly extensive room treatment.

As all of these burn in the stage expands and becomes very large, and spacious.  However, it does move closer to you or you to it.  More of a near field type experience, not in my face though.  I like it, very involving.  

So, for now, I'm keeping the Duelund Carbon Cast #2 and #3.  #3 will stay in for now and continue to burn in, #2 will be an option for down the road.  




Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 02/01/17 at 19:15:22

I may have to turn in my audiophile card. Life has gotten in the way. I now have compromised myself into a permanent position for my speakers in the living room where they sound really good, if not "ideal." If I want to get the most out of the sound as far as imaging and sound stage I have to set them up differently. I was doing this daily but it is a pain and it has cost me a Deulund resistor because the speaker cable I was using kept popping loose from the connections moving in or out of position. I am back to using the Mundorf Supreme, though I have a backorder in on a pair of Deulunds.

So I have the speakers further back towards the back wall than I would like and I compensated by moving to power tubes that can make use of this lower frequency enhancement, the coin-based Reflector 6P3S-E. And I have played around with settings and I have a great sound. I'm now spinning music or watching material and slowly forgetting many audiophile obsessive factors. It's a good thing and a testament to the years of education in set up and selection that I've gone through. Time to reap the benefits and relax.

I just no longer want to "look for the elusive pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" and eke the best out of recordings. I keep falling into that mode periodically and I hope it stops. I've finally come to realize that takes me away from music more than it brings me closer to it. I'm a few weeks into my new situation/set up and I've been happy. I'm not planning to make any changes until the Deulund resistors arrive.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 02/01/17 at 21:03:20

Lon,

I don't think the audiophile community would allow you to "turn in your card". It is very zen to forget and listen.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 02/01/17 at 21:09:06

I decided to burn it ceremoniously instead. And now I have to shower and change clothes. . . I smell of smoke! :)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/01/17 at 21:29:37

:) Funny, I have never had an audiophile card. :)

Like playing and fine-tuning instruments to help suck us into the instrument sound and play, we more easily fall into expressing music. For me, loving and nurturing what the instrument could express, awakened easier expression of music, and easier expression created more beautiful sound. The circle continuing, beautiful compelling sound helped the playing to be more inspired....the instrument and music the same....

So I guess for me, exploring great sound is exploring great music. And exploring great music changes me, awakening deeper digging into musical exploration! As I change, the sound potential changes.

It sounds like you are reaching a beautiful place Lon.

I guess I am still caught...the love of music taking me further into potentially more beautiful musical expression...I can't tell how to separate them so far!

Is this being an audiophile?;)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 02/01/17 at 23:40:37

Similarly, in a way this situation I find myself in is similar to how I find myself when playing music. I experiment with instrument choice, modification, amplification and accessory equipment until I find the range of all these that best suits what I play and how it is expressed, and then I travel that "plateau" for a long time.

I'm on a plateau with playback of music now that is allowing me to roam happily about from recording to recording, TV show to TV show, etc. I do find that concentrating on the equipment further than this point DOES take me away from the music itself, so for me it's time for a long pause. And it's nice to do so now. .. I've needed it.

The last two components, the ZBIT and the PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player, have played important parts in lifting me to this plateau, the former an elegant solution to a lack of gain my DirectStream DAC was presenting, the other lifting disc playback up to this new level. I'm broke, and happy listening.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/02/17 at 00:52:48

Sounds excellent Lon. I sort of saw this plateau coming, and am glad you are settling comfortably into it. Congratulations! Admirable.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/04/17 at 04:27:16

Lon,

Recently I've posted some of my thoughts but I have been following the discussions between Forum Members for at least three years.  During this time I've been making the switch from high powered amplification with low efficiency speakers to the the low power amplification with high efficiency speakers.

Your various insights along with those of other members have been of great help.  As a result, here I am patiently waiting (sort of) for my 2.3 watt Zen Select and the new Omega's.

Like you though, 2017 will be the year that sees me settling in to my system and focusing on music.  After all that's what it's about.

THANKS!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 02/04/17 at 14:10:18

Well you're welcome, I'm glad some of the things I post here are insightful. There are others who know a lot more about high efficiency speakers than I. I fell in love with the Radial speaker design and I learned to detest near field listening in small rooms so I moved up through the Rachael to the Torii amps and they wit HR-1s give me just the sort of flexibility and character I crave. I'm no longer trying to find the very best sound, I'm trying to find a consistent sound for the broad spectrum of music I listen to and I find that maximizing the source playback, finding just the right cabling, and power regeneration that brings that to my system. I could keep piddling forever but that is now seeming like chasing my tale. I've my thousands of discs and a great playback for them, I'm 61 and I'm very happy to sink into the music now that the hardware aspects are firmed up for me.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your Zen and Omegas! And I look forward to reading your impressions and other thoughts.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 02/12/17 at 17:58:03


Guys - this thread has become invaluable. I commented a few months ago, and have gotten some really great answers. I'm finally now ready to make my move, and I have a few last questions.

As background, I use a tube amp that pushes 5-10W into the ERR's. I usually have them running 7W into the ERR with 6L6GC tubes with a Cossor 53KU/5U4G rectifier in my Dennis Had Firebottle amp. Everything sounds great, even with the stock caps and the upgraded Mundorf MOX resistors - I've tried 5.6, 10 and 15 ohm at 10W. I definitely hear the differences between ohmage's, and while I preferred the 10ohm at first, I stuck with breaking in the 5.6 ohm because while the 5.6ohm was slightly brighter, I felt I could hear the clarity/quality of my tubes better (also I had read other users using lower ohmage resistors and wanted to try it). I've had them in for the last 3 months and have grown used to them.

The system has excellent, clear sound, though it is a little tipped towards the bright side for my taste, and slightly, slightly lean. I believe this is due to the DH Labs Silver Sonic RCA interconnect between my amp and pre-amp, which has incredible clarity, but is definitely silver. I may move that interconnect to the DAC and put my copper Acoustic Zen matrix between the amp and preamp. Ok, back to caps/resistors...but wanted to just mention how I feel about my current set up.

I'm ready to buy some nice caps and may also play with resistors, though I move very slowly to hear each piece and how it changes. MY question is, do you think it is better to start with the  3.3uF Mundorf Silver in Oil, which are ~$100/each = $200 total, or jump right up to the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax for $200/each = $400 total. I'm thinking, if I ended up using the Mundorf Silver in Oil Cap and like them, I will eventually end up moving to the Jupiter Cu Coil Paper Wax anyway.

Will - thank you for posting the link to the humble homemade hifi cap review - so good. So, do you guys have any suggestion for using the Mundorf silver in oil, or just going right for the Jupiters.

I'm also considering the DUeland RS for the same price. Humble hifi suggests that the  Jupiter has "organic texture and smoothness is very similar to that of the Duelund RS but with a tad more 'shine' in the top octave. I guess if you want to be as close to absolute, ruler flat neutrality as possible then the Duelund RS would be your favourite. If you are looking for a tad more air at the top, then the Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax is a serious alternative. A matter of personal taste I would say. Switching to a different copper-foil capacitor, the Rike Audio Q-Cap, you get more body especially noticable with solo piano. But the Q-Cap doesn't have that same lush and intimate character that makes the Jupiter so convincing and lovable. Comparing the Jupiter with the Duelund CAST-Cu, I found there was a tad more blacker background and a little more "being there" effect with the CAST-Cu. Only a very small difference but noticable, especially on well recorded classical music with real-life acoustics. Anyway, the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax is one of my favourite capacitors!".

If this is the case, then maybe the similarly priced Dueland RS is the better bet for me if I'm trying to get more warm, and more lush? Btw Flat stacked Jupiters are discontinued and no longer available. Anyone have any experience comparing these two?

Do you think I should leave the resistors alone for now until I let the cap break in? Too much to change both at once, right? I'm thinking about the Duelund Standard Graphite/Silvers resistors, which seem to be popular here and near the top of the food chain.

Thank you everyone for any thoughts you may have!!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/13/17 at 22:32:59

Hey doukhobar,

Sounds like you have a nice system and sound! And more fun to come. I wonder what your stock caps are? This would help with recommendations.

I was where you are...Flat Stacks, Mundorf Silver/oil, or go for the gusto..Juptier Copper.

I have not used the coppers in my speakers, but have used standard Mundorf Supremes as primary and bypass caps. Also Mundorf ZN and Mundorf Silver/oil bypasses. Also Russian K40-Ys and Jupter HTs as bypasses...

I have noticed a Mundorf characteristic that is bugging me some in the tweeter circuit...a little technical feeling in terms of body/signal density. It sounds like warm body, but maybe not as sophisticated as it should be...sounding like it is "trying" to sound this way. This may be in part that they may be a little more "cappy," a little more forceful in loudness. This may be just right for your leaner setup as-is, but a caution as it sounds little unnatural in comparison to the Jupiter VTs I have now.

The Silver/Oils are better at it than the standard Supremes, being a more refined sounding cap, but it is there even using a 0.33 bypass. The detail complexity is very good, but the overall sound is not as "organic" as the caps they bypass, for which I really can't hear anything wrong with. They are the Jupiter replacement for Flat Stacks...100v VTs.

I really do like the VTs mounted backwards. Very natural sounding with plenty of detail, including convincing fine detail, and all in a warm and rich, but spacious foundation. These are 3.3 Jupiter VTs, the stock value for the HR1, and likely your ERRs...I think the same tweeter, though Bob was trying a variation from the same company for while.

I do prefer a total of 3.63 adding the 0.33 of the Mundorf Silvers. Getting a little lower into the lower highs is really nice to me, but the straight up VT 3.3 sounds really good. And even with the slightly forced sense of signal density with the Mundorfs, I love the combination. Both really good caps.

I did the bypass thing on purpose, having had bypasses work nicely in the past, offering better high resolution, while also allowing tuning cap sound. Maybe I have just been lucky with the synergy of my choices though.

I liked the smooth but open Russian PIO for bypasses in the past with the 3.3 Supremes, but did not like Jupiter HTs as much for bypasses...a little too lean and tizzy for me, almost synthetic. But they are great in the Torii MKIII as coupling caps, and as bypasses of bypasses for the power supply caps in my MKIV.

I put Jupiter Coppers in the MKIV for coupling caps. They do the best cap thing to me...very complete and natural sounding, I don't really notice them...just music. By comparison, to the HTs, they increased transparent resolution in a very convincing and natural way...more complete in every respect with no downside....a little warmer and smoother without feeling darker or even notably smooth, just natural... more detailed and extended in a less obvious ways than the HTs....they are just more refined, doing what they do in complete, quiet and authentic ways.

How they would work as tweeter caps...can't say, but I am very tempted to try them as bypasses to the Jupiter VTs. And I suspect the Coppers or RS would be really nice for your speakers from reviews, but can't say from experience.

If you want to go with less expense for now, the 100v VTs would likely shift your world nicely, that is, if their qualities would work relative to your needs. I think they will, but that would depend what you are using now...I suspect they might have more warm body without sacrificing very refined detail, and that amazing natural spaciousness Jupiters have.

Check out Sonicraft for prices on Juptiers. They do very close matching there too, which you want I think.

The VTs are really big too, so check that out if you get interested in them. Makes me wonder about the size of 3.3 Coppers and Duelund RS too. Worth looking.

I will test the resistors again. My cast Duelund and Standards are both 3 ohm and burned in. What I noticed most in past tests was the open transparency of the Standards, as compared to the increased density of the Cast. There may be more resolution with the casts as Joman perceives, but this was not what showed in the face to me. I will have to look at that more carefully, but I did not, and do not notice lack of resolution with the Standards, finding them very resolving, and more transparent...closer in tonal values to other resistors I have tried than the casts.

And there is no doubt my system is highly resolving. I will check this out again later today or tomorrow, and see what I hear with Joman's comments in mind. The casts might fit your needs well, powering up body some, but so far, they were a little forceful for me. I look forward to comparing again.

None-the-less, I like your idea of one at a time (caps and resistors) seeing what the sound is like before making final decisions on the one you get second.

Another cool thing about Jupiter caps (maybe Duelund too?) is that they can sound quite good right off, then continue to refine for several hundred hours. I have heard 500-600 from a reliable cap guy, and my experience with the Torii taking that long to burn in fully would corroborate that. But the Torii is so complex, I was not sure it was caps. And actually, it started to even up quite well at 300+ if I recall, and then refined for a few hundred more. It definitely was the Jupiter caps taking a long time in the CSP3 though, the Jupiters added after full burnin.

But, the good thing...I was so excited about the Juptier VTs for my speakers, I put them in with no burnin, and really liked them right off compared to the old Supremes. Whereas the Mundorf Supremes were more notably needing burning...thickish, and obviously not there for quite a while.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/15/17 at 23:07:39

Hey Will,

Unfortunately I have had to sideline my ERR's and so will not be able to finish the testing of the Duelund Casts.  I sold my Cary amp much faster than expected and the replacement, a Zen Select, is not meant for the ERR's but for the new Omegas.

In the meantime I am listening through my ZDSD, CSP3 and HD800.

However there is a further interesting development relevant to the Duelund Casts.  I felt that the Duelunds were very revealing.  That they really did not add anything as much as they allowed the character of upstream components to come through.

During the testing of the Duelunds my CSP3 had a Phillips 5YR4GYS Rectifier and an Amprex 6DJ8 input.  The output tubes were stock.

I decided to try a Mullard CV593/GZ2 Rectifier in the CSP3.  The difference through the HD800 was significant, and the HD800's can be merciless, in my opinion.  As good as the Phillips was the Mullard is better.  Far more coherent top to bottom.  While maintaining the PRaT and resolution it took the edge off.

I believe that the Duelunds were as revealing as the HD800's in this regard and were merely showing what was going on upstream.  However, this has to be tested, it's assumption at this point.

My intention is to verify this once I get the Zen Select.  The Omegas are meant to replace the ERR's, eventually.  So I'm only putting the ERR's back in to verify my assumption, and keeping them as a "just in case" because they are so forgiving and I like them so much.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 02/15/17 at 23:45:13

Will and Joman - you guys are like a fountain of knowledge.

As a note, if anyone has any used high quality 3.3uF caps like those we are mentioning here (e.g. 3.3uf Mundorf Supremes, Dueland RS, etc.) that they would like to sell, please let me know! My current stock caps are the 3.3 uF clarity caps that came with the ERR, though I am unsure which model.

Regarding the brightness/warmth spectrum and shifting that to more warmth using interconnects, after writing up my post I went ahead and moved the silver RCA cables from between the amp/preamp downstream to between the preamp/DAC; and put the copper RCA cables between the amp/preamp. I had been thinking about this experiment for awhile, but never motivated enough to do it. It is definitely warmer, and closer to the sound I am looking for. Sound stage is still excellent, microdetails still present, though highs are not quite as crisp while still being very clear. Also, regarding tubes - the power tubes were actually the GE 7581A, which are 6L6GC variants ahtat I've read folks think can be a little bright. Mine are also not burnt in yet.

Back to caps - I'm thinking the 3.3 uF value for sure, and this way if I ever want to wire in parallel with another flavor like the 0.33 Mundorf Silver in Oils in the future for further tweaking, I still have room to do that as yous suggested in Reply #51. I'm deciding between the 3.3 uF Dueland RS and the Jupiter Copper which are both rated '13' by 'Humble Home Made HiFI' and the same price at Partsconnexion. .

About the Dueland RS:
Sound: After many hours of burn-in time the main thing that I kept writing about in my notes was how natural the Duelund RS-Cu sounds. This is one of the few capacitors with which I didn't have the urge to do some fine-tuning or mixing with other types / brands to reach an optimum result. In all the loudspeaker crossovers I tested them in, they just sounded so logical everytime...Focussing on the highest frequencies, again the Duelund RS seemed to sound the most natural. Various high-grade Mundorf capacitors that I compared the RS to all seemed to high-light that area a bit. This can be usefull or pleasent in some cases, but for me, they were not strictly neutral. Compared to the Duelund VCF-Cu the top-end has improved. Although a very nice capacitor, I always found the VSF-Cu to have a slightly rolled-off top-end. The Duelund RS, like the CAST-Cu, has more top-end clarity and together with that, more spatiality. Are we then looking at a CAST-Cu in disguise? No, the CAST-Cu still is the no-compromise capacitor with a blacker back-ground, making it more silent than the RS. Also the RS-Cu doesn't quite have the same image depth as the CAST-Cu. But like I stated earlier, the Duelund RS Copper Capacitor is a real no brainer, once you have put this capacitor in your loudspeaker crossovers you will never need to tweak again! Everything just sounds so logical

About the Jupiter Copper:
Sound: The Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax seems to have everything you are looking for in a capacitor: a coherent and organic presentation, detail and smoothness come hand-in-hand, a well controlled and focussed image, rich and transparant overtones, they are all there. The image is produced against a quiet background making it sound spatious with good retrieval of the recording venue. For example on Jordi Savall's mulit-channel recording of "Ăprit D'Armnie", when you close your eyes it is as if you are sitting there in the old church building with the musician's only a few metres away. The texture and timbre of acoustic instruments seems very realistic. Comparing the Jupiter with other high quality capacitors, you get similar amounts of fine detail as you do with the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil but with more weight and coherence. The top end clarity of the Jupiter also has certain richness to it. It's organic texture and smoothness is very similar to that of the Duelund RS but with a tad more "shine" in the top octave. I guess if you want to be as close to absolute, ruler flat neutrality as possible then the Duelund RS would be your favourite. If you are looking for a tad more air at the top, then the Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax is a serious alternative. A matter of personal taste I would say. Switching to a different copper-foil capacitor, the Rike Audio Q-Cap, you get more body especially noticable with solo piano. But the Q-Cap doesn't have that same lush and intimate character that makes the Jupiter so convincing and lovable. Comparing the Jupiter with the Duelund CAST-Cu, I found there was a tad more blacker background and a little more "being there" effect with the CAST-Cu. Only a very small difference but noticable, especially on well recorded classical music with real-life acoustics. Anyway, the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax is one of my favourite capacitors

I'm thinking of going with the Jupiter. So thats $400. More than the price of a quad of RCA 6L6GC black plates. However, considering I already have enough tubes to last me a few years, and I listen to the speakers every day, it seems the caps are a logical purchase. I hope ya'll agree!

Will, I just looked at Sonicraft. Whereas it seems they are only 5% matched form Patsconnexion, sonicraft has a tiered matching system for a small additional cost. Sonicraft is also overall $100 cheaper for the pair - sweet! So total of $300 w/o extra matching.

The Jupiter copper dimensions are: Dimensions (DxL): 1.890 x 2.50 Inch. Same size as the VT.

Joman - I also have the HD800 and it's being paired with my Taboo III. My next purchase is an after market balanced cable. What sort of Omega's are you getting? Have you ever heard a dual driver outlaw Omegas? I really liked their ability to handle more complex passages. I've heard a 3XRS and also really loved it - incredible soundstage, like an artist's palate.  
Joman, when you posted the picture of the Jupiter caops on the back of your ERR, were they glued to the back of the speaker to hold them in place? Thanks everybody!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/16/17 at 00:39:49

Hey doukhobar,

The Omegas I ordered are the ones ordered through Decware - SUPER3HO XRS.

Never heard these or other Omegas before but they have been on my "radar".  When Steve described their performance it reminded me of the description of one of my favorites - QUAD ESL63.  Love those but they are lacking in the low end.  The new Omegas seem to address this.

I'm aware that as fast as they appear to be they will come with tradeoffs that the ERRs do not.  I'm prepared for that and am willing to do room treatments as required.

I've always gravitated toward fast systems because I find the performance of such to be very involving.  Some will find such systems to be edgy or aggressive.  I feel that is true but only because they are brutaly honest and are revealing deficiencies or the character of upstream components and the room as the final component.  

The Duelund Carbon seem to take the ERR's in that direction.  That doesn't mean that the Duelund Standards do not.  It's just that the Carbons are much more so.

Think of it this way, A lady is trying on a pair of Jeans and asks "Do they make me look fat?"  The Duelund Standards say "no... you just need the right belt or blouse", honest but with sensitivity and tact..  The Duelund Casts say "no the jeans don't make you look fat, your fat ass makes you look fat", honest but with no sensitivity and no tact.

I tend to be like the Duelund Casts, and that is not the best approach for everyone, and definitely not the ladies.

The mounting of the Jupiter is a bit involved.  First, mine is a 630V and that is not necessary (there I go wringing out the last little bit).  A 100V will do and it is smaller.

The Caps are not glued to the back.  I made a "stem" out of Cork. I used RTV silicone to mount the stem to the speaker.  Then I used a zap strap to hold the cap to the stem.

Next... The leads from the cap were a little short.  I made an extension from Mundorf silver/gold hook up wire.  At one end is a WBT silver crimp sleeve which couples the Cap lead wire and the hook up wire.  Once positioned I soldered the sleeve and wires using Mundorf Silver/Gold solder.
(I did mention that I was a little like the Duelund Carbon)

If you do get the Jupiter Flat Stacked square Cap, look me up, I'll make the mounting stems for you N/C.  The rest is up to you.

By the way, I was going to get the Duelund Silver/Cu 3.3 100V Caps for the ERR's. (Close to $600.00 ea. on a special, if your thinking that I'm a little psychotic, you'd be right... but just a little).  Since I went for the Omegas that is not happening.



 

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/16/17 at 02:08:30

Doukhobar,

Yes sonocraft has had the best prices for Juptiers for a while. The way my binding posts are set up, the 3.3 VTs are difficult to get connected having shortish wires, but they work. I use some Herbies grungebuster material under them between the speaker back and on top of the binding posts below for damping and support. I will likely have to do something similar to Joman's solution one day, but this is fine for now. I bet you will love the Coppers and look forward to your reports!

Joman,

I never liked the Philips 5R4GYs...I really tried, but rather than "warm" I found them veiled, too much so for me. I could not quite get National 7DJ8s either, loving some other PCC88/7DJ8s, but not quite the National, another tube "Uncle Kevy" waxed eloquent on. I have not bought any tubes from there since.

For 5R4s, I got some Fivres from a big British seller that are quite nice, and older RCAs suited me better than the Phillips too. Though less characterful, they could sound a little plain and clear compared some others, but the pair I have have a nice subtle warmth and are very revealing.

I have been using Phillips/Mullard GZ32 in the CSP3, as well as Phillips/Mazda GZ32 in the Torii for some years now, the Mazda labelled GZ32 another very nice variation on the type. I have a lot of nice rectifiers, but the GZ32 remains my favorite. So I get what you are hearing.

On the Duelund resistors:

I finally had a chance to put in the Duelund Carbon Casts back in after listening to the Standards for a long time. My first impressions are as before...the Standards sound like "no resistor," and the casts sound darker, also revealing, and a little too forceful to me. This is coming from the subtler Duelund flavor as reference though.

The blacks likely need to at least "settle" if not "re-burn" a bit, and they are different enough I need to get used to them!

At this point, I would agree that they are very resolving feeling, but I find the main difference between them and the Standards to be increased warmth, tonal density, and even perhaps a sense of compression! Can't say, but the end result is quite rich, warm, revealing, and powerful, but I would not say "honest" at this point.

This may be semantics, and this could change for me, but at this moment, these traits feel more like an excellent effort at a particular sound rather than transparency. I have never heard this sound except from these resistors.

My system/room is highly tuned, very fast, and very revealing also, more than most by all reports.

After these settle for a few days....system and mind, I will try to evaluate again. Then I can also do some comparisons to some other resistors I have around and some straight wires.

Its all fun! Great we have such beautiful tuning tools! :)

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/16/17 at 02:43:39

Hey Will,

Yes, I would agree with your assessments of the Carbon Casts, and they do sound different from any resistor I've tried.  That's why I'm a little cautious on recommending them, but they are worth an audition and may be the ticket for some.  It is fun and worth the price of admission.

I get where you're coming from on the "honest" aspect regarding the Carbon Cast.

I found that they need a lot of time to settle in, probably 100 hours min.  That is my guess based on the the way they have been settling in.

I liked the Mullard GZ32 so much that I got several.  Don't know how long one will last, but I do know they will only be harder to get and pricier as time goes on.

How long have yours lasted in the CSP3?

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/16/17 at 20:44:11

It looks like I ran the Casts in my burnin thing for 3-4 days, then in the system several days. So I guess they are close to 100 hours when I pulled them. But the Fry Baby is not just the same as music...so maybe another day or two will tell the tale.

At this point, they are too "in the face" for me, but they do sound quite interesting other than being too powered up. Hopefully this will settle down. I did have an enjoyable "trip" into the music last night with them!

The Mullard GZ32 in the CSP3 was I think "about 90%" when I got it, having been used in a guitar amp. It cost about nothing and was a '59 so I wanted to hear it. I got it about 1.5 years ago, and going strong. Before that I used several different GZ32s, an early ST shape Mazda like I have used in my Torii a long time, but mostly fat bottle types, also Mazda labelled, one Dario that looks like Telefunken fat bottles. I never went long enough to say how long they may last. Many years though according to the Mazdas in the Torii... my eBay history does not go back far enough to say when I got those.

I have had 3! fail in the CSP3. One was labelled Adzam, and two Telefunken. Those were also early, and all NOS. They shorted out within a day or less...No idea why...shipping damage??? Rough history in the boxes. Don't know, but the only rectifiers that have gone on me at all have been shorts, blowing the fuse.

Another interesting tube is 5V4G, the US "equivalent" of a GZ32. Not necessarily the same, some more different, and some closer to Phillips STs. Especially early fat bottles with D getters (older) can be nice. I just put in a Tungsol, and it sounds great.



Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/17/17 at 00:03:21

Thanks Will, that helps.  Interesting about the Tungsol.  My GZ32 are NOS CV593 (Brit. Mil.) and I did pay - it hurt, but not as much as Uncle Kevs Philips.  I'll look for a Tungsol on the cheap, if only to try, my curiosity is peaked.

Regarding the Carbon Casts, that was my only gripe - powered up, a little too in your face.  They seemed to settle enough for me and do have a certain intriguing character, if not totally honest, somehow they do seem to give me the illusion of the real thing.  I think that I could make them work except for...

I don't know if I'll work with ERR's long enough once I get the Omegas and not having an amp now complicates things.  So this might be a loose end for quite a while.

Turns out I ordered the first pair of Omegas. Kind of silly to be exited about that at my age.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/17/17 at 01:37:36

Sounds exciting to me!

The Tungsol is a little rounder and more textured than the Mullard, while being quite open and defined. Clearer in some ways, and deeper in others... the way it does spaciousness seems to round out the Casts nicely. It is all so much about what is with what!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/17/17 at 02:18:05

Will,
Ever tried a 5Y3GT in the CSP3?  Some posted that they use a 5Y3 in the CSP and the GZ2 in the Select.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 02/17/17 at 02:37:19

Guys, I have to chime in here. Any conversation that 'degenerates' into a discussion of tubes is a very worthy conversation.

I must confess I am something of a rectifier collector. But somehow, I've never owned the GZ32. I've always thought of it as most similar to the 5Y3, though I am not exactly sure what the differences are in electrical specs off hand.

I've tested most of the following rectifiers, or at least own them, in the SE84CKC amp, which is ruthlessly revealing, or the Taboo III with the HD800 or Hifiman HE6. My pre-amp also takes 5Y3, so I have alot of those.
- Philips metal base 5AR4/GZ34
- USAF 596/5U4G equivalent
- Marconi U50/5Y3 black base, inverted cup getter
- Marconi U50/5Y3 brown base, D getter
- Neotron 5Y3 mesh plate
- Sophia 274B meshplate, current production
- Ken Rad 5Y3GY with donut mica and fishing pole filaments
- Bendix 6106/5Y3
- RCA 5U4GB top getter
- Cossor 53KU/5U4G
- Brimar brown base 5R4G^
- Brimar labeled 5U4G/believed to be RCA, bottom getter
- RCA 5R4GY, tan base
- Mullard GZ30 (5Y3 equivalent?)
- Radiotechnique 5Y3 tall bottle

I can pretty much tell you the characteristics of each from memory, if you were so interested. I should probably right them down at some point. However, I can tell you that using the ERR speakers, or the HD800 with classical music, the Brimar 5R4GY stands out. Some folks who are not used to tubes, perhaps might describe this tube as overly 'warm' or even syrupy, but I personally love it. As a former classical musician, to me this makes the orchestra just sound right. I also really liked the RCA 5R4GY, and you can find some really cool old samples in their original boxes, from the 1950's on eBay. In terms of 5Y3, the Neotron mesh plate I got, wow....forget it though, it's so rare - I bought it from a dude in France I met online. I also really like the Marconi U50 tubes which are 5Y3 equivalents electrically. They have great sound!!! Some are make in UK, others in Italy. It does seem there are some ITalian made Marconi tubes - they are not all GEC/Osram made. My first one was the brown base D getter with Marconi sticker (see picture below) and I enjoyed it so much I sought out backups. Also great with classical and jazz ensembles. I ended up getting alot from a gentleman in the UK of U50 tubes, and some have the inverted cup getter. One is in my preamp right now - these are really great too. I found the BEndix 6106 ruler flat neutral. Not romantic enough for my tastes, but definitely neutral. I also really liked the Philips metal base 5AR4 - listened to my tube for the first time in my Taboo with Hifiman HE6 headphones at a meet - it blew my mind. I want those headphones now just so I can listen to that combo all day long. So textured, the most microdetail of any tube and headphone combo I've heard. Expensive tube. Right now the Cossor 53KU is in my amp. I believe it's a 5U4G equivalent. Have you rectifier lovers seen the thread on Headfi about rectifiers?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread




Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 02/17/17 at 02:44:37

JOMAN, I can't believe you dropped that kind of coin without ever listening to Omega speakers. Holy smokes! But all I can say is I am 100% certain you will not be disappointed. My first experience hearing Omega speakers changed my entire perspective on audio, and it was just a couple of years ago. That listening session precipitated an entire move into SET. I read Steve's email a few weeks ago about the SUPER3HO XRS when they first launched and I was initially excited until I saw the price. Just too rich for my blood. From memory, I believe it is similar to Louis' other Outlaw models, with at least one Alnico driver. I do know Omega people are very active on Audio Circle and there is some great info there. You are a very lucky audiophile!

Additional note about the Mullar GZ32/CV593 - in the recitifer thread it is rated down a ways, but the review is excellent. States it sounds similar to the GEC U52, which is my dream tube! Now I've got to get a Mullard GZ32!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 02/17/17 at 02:57:31

Will,
Can I ask what your personal favorite rectifiers might include? Looks like I should scoop up some GZ32 tubes. There are Mullards floating around for <$50 and plenty of other brands too like the Mazda and Philips. I may try some.
Can I ask what 7DJ8 you like? I've got a pair of Telefunken I have not listened to yet and also a GEC pinched waist 7DJ8 that I bought from a gentleman in Spain (I've spent way too much money on tubes this lat year). At first I did not care for the GEC in my Decware Taboo amp, but really like it now in my Dennis Had KT88 amp.
Sorry for the massive amount of posting...I just have a few minutes on my hands with the wife and kid asleep...shhhh.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JOMAN on 02/17/17 at 04:01:56

doukhobar,

I did say that I was a little psychotic, didn't I.  Not really.  

I've been at this since 1975. 21 at the time.  I've owned speakers at twice that price and had lengthy exposure to speakers in the 6 figure bracket.  Likewise with systems.  The ones that I owned were all auditioned before I bought only to be unhappy over time.

The conclusion that I came to is that auditioning in anything but your own space over a period of time that allows components to burn in is of little value.  

After awhile you begin to get a sense for what you are happy with. I spent the last 5 plus years testing this by buying preowned components without any auditioning and found that I could do better than auditioning first.  Also by buying preowned I could resell and often break even or in some cases come out ahead.

I am now determined to make this my last series of purchases and focus entirely on music.  After lengthy conversations with Steve and testing I came to the point that I was ready to by new again.

Turned out that I picked up a CSP3 pre owned by coincidence, a new ZDSD, and on Steves recommendation I found HD800's preowned... and the results were better, way better, than the results of anything that I had auditioned prior to purchasing.

That gave me the confidence to buy the final links in the chain prior to auditioning.

Now look at a couple of examples:

Sen. HD800:  New about $1,800.00.  I bought a pristine pair for $700.00.  I could try them in my own space with my components and if I did't like the result I could resell for $800.00.

New Omegas $2,295.00:  Try in my own space. If it's a no go I can return for a restocking of 10% plus freight here and back.  How can I go wrong?  Most audiophiles will loose 50% of the purchase price if they are not happy.
If the Omegas are even close to Steve's informal review, then, IMO they are a bargain.

The Zen Select:  Steve says try it.  If it doesn't work by another Zen amp for the difference and keep listening until the replacement is ready to ship.  Talk about an offer you can't refuse.

This may not work for everyone.  But it certainly has for me and your comments about the Omegas tell me that I probably will not be disappointed.

Thanks

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/17/17 at 05:26:18

doukhobar. I forgot to respond to your saying you had Clarity caps in the ERRs. If they are from the last three to four years, I am guessing Clarity SA. It is a pretty nice cap, having a lot of what we want...but a little over blown and affected in detailed texture aspects in the HR1s if I recall, probably contributing to your sense of brightness...I wanted smoother and more refined detail.

Mundorf Supremes, powerful with smooth, and, at least bypassed with Russian K40-Ys PIOs, more warm/big body with plenty of more refined detail after the long burnin.... That is one notable level up to me.

Double the price, and you have Jupiter VTs, ...a friendly and atmospheric cap that is not dark or dense, but warm in a natural way....but not dulled by darkness.... having good speed and refined detail in beautiful space...refined enough not to really sound like "detail" if you know what I mean...just real.

Then double the price again, you have the Jupiter Coppers, at sonicraft's current price anyway. I would love to hear these in my speakers, but just did not want to pay (400 at the time I bought the VTs). As it is as a coupling cap, I imagine this cap would be pretty flawless for tweeters. I love the VTs, guessing they are probably more atmospheric than the Coppers, but can only guess. VT stands for vintage. Based on coupling sound, I would think the Coppers would more-or-less disappear, leaving nothing out, and adding nothing in particular, but doing it in a spacious, natural feeling way.

As to rectifiers and inputs, I would have to think some on that. Seems the "best" is a lot about what else we have in our system/room, but there sure are nicer tubes within that.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 02/17/17 at 21:02:47

Regarding rectifiers: years ago Will's comments about them made me seek out "coke bottle shaped" rectifiers and Now I can hardly live without them. They have a finesse that straight-shouldered, big or small, don't seem to in my machines.

For years I have been running what were purported to be 'forties RCA 5V4 bottle shaped RCAs in my Torii and like the porridge Goldilocks decided on I found them just right, with the right balance of warmth and detail and imaging for the other tubes in my amp. But when my latest component, the PS Audio PerfectWave Memory Player, was brand new I just was not getting the tonal balance I was before and I experimented with tubes and found that putting a pair of bottle-shaped Silvania 5U4 rectifiers gave me a return to the sound I wanted. As the component broke in (I don't know why a transport would have such a dramatic break in cycle, but this did) the sound became nicely detailed with an air open midrange and a tight bass. But with a lot of seasoning some recordings seems just a bit clinical and I wondered what I could do. I remembered the RCA 5V4s and put this in in place of the Sylvania. . . and wow, not only is the clinical emphasis defeated but there's more spaciousness and the only trade off is a bit of high end detail and clarity, which has in fact made the sound more "real" to me and less Hi-fi-like. So I haven't used the GZ32 type but it's American cousin the 5V4 is a really good choice for the Torii Mk III.

I don't have access to the capacitors in my HR-1s but those that Bob selected for me seem to be doing a fine job. I have had to go back to the Mundorf Supreme resistors as one of the leads to the Duelund Standard Carbon-Silvers came loose from the resistor due to  near-daily wire unfastening and fastening caused by my need to move the speakers to suit my wife. I have another pair of Duelunds on back order and they should come into stock zoon (I hope). I'm happy with the Mundorf but there's an immediacy that I miss from the Duelund sound.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 02/25/17 at 21:34:48

Interesting side note I just found my clarity cap capacitors that came with my ERR's and they 3.9's. I thought the whole time they were 3.3, makes more sense why I went with the 3.9 mundorfs. Bought some Jupiter VT 3.3 to compare. At first listen they definitely sound different. Simple music sounds fantastic but more complex and it is really bright. Will burn in and check back in.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/25/17 at 21:44:40

Hey JD,

Never know, the 3.3/3.9 thing may be your friend? Hope they sound good with some burnin. A lot of room for tuning with bypasses too!

The VTs will change a lot...They will richen, becoming more spacious, complex and deeper. Don't forget to try them both directions, with the line toward the speaker ground, and with it toward the hot speaker wire. One way or the other will sound better. Not sure how much the directional effect shows once fully burned in, but a big difference here when new, and after a few weeks. I started with mine backwards, the line toward the hot terminal, and they have stayed that way. But I think this was the more open/detailed way, so you may prefer the other....at least for now.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 02/26/17 at 14:23:26

Thanks for that info Will. I had them "regular" and they were way too bright. "Backwards" or towards the hot are fantastic. They are extremely rich and detailed and not overwhelming at all. Listening to an acoustic fm music program this morning and really enjoying. I did have to cut a prior pair of resistor wires to attach/rig to the end of these to make them fit/connect, they are huge.


JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/26/17 at 16:22:54

Great to hear they are better backwards! I really like these caps.

The thing Jupiter seems to have over many others is that they actually sound good to start. Then the cooler thing...they get better with time like all the others too, moving into exceptional territory! The natural/warm/smooth conveyance of highly complex detail in space is so amazing once burnt in, it can be heart rending.

Yes they are huge...I had to work a little to get a good connection to the terminals on the HR1s, and support them from below with damping material, being concerned about too much tension on the wires with the weight of the caps!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 02/26/17 at 16:40:49

By the way. I ran the Black Duelund Carbon Cast 3.0 Resistors for weeks, and really did end up appreciating them. I found the same as Joman, they take a while to burn in fully, and once they do, the intensity compared to the 3.0 Standards does calm down some. And there is no doubt to me the Casts sound amazing. I could make them work beautifully if I did not have the Standards to fall back on. At this point, I still find them very impressive, but "too there" ...a little too demanding for my system/room and tastes.

Putting back in the Standards after getting used to the Casts, I was a little non-plussed. I had adjusted the system a bit to integrate the more forceful Casts, so changing back, at first the Standards seemed a little too "not there." But at the same time, I felt a big relief. Finally, to me, the Standards are pretty much neutral and transparent, and the Casts have everything the Standards have, more powerfully/forcefully conveyed.....Good choices to have!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 03/11/17 at 21:44:14

Just a beginning update. I got some 0.33 Jantzen Superiors, and some 0.33 Audyn True Coppers to try as bypasses for the 3.3 Jupiter VTs. You might remember I was beginning to notice things about Mundorfs that did not become clear until the Jupiters were in, but had been bothering me for some time. It seems Mundorf Supremes (including silver/oils) have a compression factor that contributes to signal density in a way that can feel "off" once noticed. At the same time, they sound pretty "right" in logical ways, but if they do not "feel" right, they are not quite right.

That said, I really did liked the Mundorf Silver/oils bypassing the Jupiters, a really good sound for the most part. But the Audyns, in now, though perhaps very slightly "technical," they have beautiful open flow, no sense of compression, just very open, revealing, and balanced free flow. Good copper foil is something to love, beautifully open and revealing with round, rich and complex musicality. Quite beautiful with the Jupiter VTs.

I had burned the True Coppers and Jantzens in on my FryBaby for 125+ hours, and then in the system for another 30-40, so I expect more from them with more time...some more refinement of fine information and smoothing, but would probably be happy with either of these as is. The coppers have been in for the last five days, and they have really grown on me, becoming more and more emotionally involved.

I will try to do a comparison between the these and the Silver/oils in the next several days.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 06/30/17 at 14:06:38

Hello ERR guru friends:

I hope some of you are still around. I realize others of you have moved on...sniff, sniff.

Anyway, I finally purchased the Jupiter 3.3uF copper foil caps. However, I can't seem to figure out how to install them without modifying wiring. They are so much larger than the old caps, and the leads are just about the same length they don't nearly reach the binding posts. How do you guys suggest running the leads to this cap to the binding posts?

I've even included a picture!


Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Lon on 06/30/17 at 14:35:27

Wow. That is a pickle. I have an earlier form of ERR and only have two binding posts on the back. . . mine is a different setup and I THINK I could make that work, but don't have the speakers on hand (they're in storage) ....

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 06/30/17 at 14:54:29

Thanks Lon. I know JOMAN did it successfully awhile back. I've attached his picture.

It looks like he epoxied the capacitor to a piece of cork which was cut to the correct dimensions giving clearence to the capacitor and providing enough room to fiddle with the leads. Then he epoxied the cork to the ERR speaker itself.

Also looks like someone, possibly JOMAN used resistor wire to go between the capacitor and binding post. I guess that was simply tested together then shrink wrapped over it. Just my guesses!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Donnie on 06/30/17 at 14:55:24

Solder longer leads on them??

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 06/30/17 at 17:06:32

Yeah...I don't have a soldering gun on me, and was hoping not to have to solder anything, but I guess I could go get a new one if necessary. Any thoughts on the wiring used to extend the leads?

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Donnie on 06/30/17 at 19:59:38

Do you have any old speaker wire laying around? Cut and strip 6" of old speaker wire and solder to the ends.
Go to your local Home Store and buy a cheap $20 soldering iron kit that comes with the solder.
Twist some of the speaker wire around one or both ends and solder it together.
Soldering isn't too hard, heat the iron up and drop some solder on your joint. Let it cool and tape it up. 10 minutes of work and an experience that will last you a lifetime.
In 6 months you will be producing point to point wired amplifiers and world class speakers.
Here is a soldering primer.
https://home-audio.wonderhowto.com/how-to/solder-speaker-lead-wires-298576/

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 06/30/17 at 20:01:39

Thanks!
I am wondering if old speaker wire is what I should use, considering much of this conversation has centered around differences between 0.68 and 0.82 ohm resistors! I was thinking perhaps some specialty solder and wire was needed? PartsConnexion recommendations welcome!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Donnie on 06/30/17 at 20:34:06

I really doubt that 6" of wire is going to screw anything up. Think about the miles of crappy wire between your wall receptacle and the generators. It kind of boggles the mind doesn't it.
I just thought of the newest trick thing to do for your stereo.
The company I work for builds giant generator sets that can power whole towns. I need to put one out back behind my shed and power my stereo with it! Just think, clean, unadulterated power without all of the nasty stuff from being hooked up with everyone else's jusk.
Can I borrow a couple of hundred thou?

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 06/30/17 at 20:36:50

OK. I don't mean any offense, but I don't think that is a useful response. I appreciate the input though. Good day, Sir!

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by JD on 06/30/17 at 20:58:19

doukhobar,

What I did was cut some extra wire from resistors that I wasn't using and tightly wrapped it around the capacitor ends and attach it to the binding post.
Worked fine for me.

JD

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by Donnie on 06/30/17 at 21:39:03

Yep, I can come off as a jerk when I'm trying to be funny.
Anyway, I understand what you are trying to do, change the crossover point from 2922 hz to 2423 hz. , that is if you are using a 8 ohm tweeter.
I may be a jerk, but I'm real good with math.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 07/01/17 at 00:25:24

From my understanding, it is the capacitor value that changes the frequency cut-off. Refer to Will's series of posts above on the subject. The resistor is for attenuation (i.e. a volume control).

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by doukhobar on 07/01/17 at 00:28:34

Thanks JD!

I really gleamed alot out of your back and forth with will. I studied this page for months, basically.

Also, what was your approach to mounting the Jupiter caps to the back baseplate?

FYI I paid $300 for the 3.3uF pair from Sonicraft. Thought that was a reasonable price, as it was lower than other websites and it arrived in 48 hrs.

Title: Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Post by will on 07/01/17 at 01:21:57

doukhobar,

With the caps cradled between what are left and right binding post sets with your setup (where the clarity is now), there may be enough wire to hook them up. With Jupiter VT caps here, I was able to gently bend the wire around evenly to fit into the binding post holes.

But your posts are vertical, and if they fit, the caps are heavy...a lot of stress on the wires if mounted that way. My posts are horizontal on my HR-1s, so nestling the cap between the bottom (speaker wire) posts, and the top cap posts...to support them, I set some Herbie's grundgbuster material on top of the bottom posts, carrying a lot of the weight of the caps. If you can figure out a good way to support your caps from below to relieve stress on the wires, and not set up vibration, maybe you could get listening to the caps while you figure out a better solution. Blue tack on the backs might help short term!

Even though my setup worked as described, the wires were a bit difficult being short, so I did end up soldering on a little piece of 20 gauge pure silver wire I had around. I got an OK mechanical connection by bending the wires with little curved ends, so they looked like mini-sheperd's staff tops...hooked the cap wire loop to the silver wire loop, squeezed the loops together until snug, and soldered with silver solder. I wonder if DIY velcro would work on the back of the cap and between your vertical posts.

May want to try them in both directions. The line on the label is meant to go toward best ground, but with the VTs, they sounded better here with the line toward the positive speaker wire. Whatever way they sound good there, the VTs do sound different based on direction.

:)

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